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Keep the vanilla ones

Use an expanded vocabularly

Start entirely from scratch

Cull the words that don't make sense from vanilla, then add words as we go

Other(post it in the comments)

[Urdothor]

I had it in my mind that magic was ubiquitous, and creatures would have naturally evolved to adapt to such a magic-rich environment. Still don't mind if we're going to do mundanity over magic. Not sure if mundanity is a strong suit of this franchise though. *cough*

As an added thought, the interdimensional beings could be magic resistant or immune as well, sort of like the Dungeon Dimensioners from Discworld. It could explain why the natives saw the need to turn to technology with their magic being useless against them.

I was thinking perhaps mundanity was a passive magic? Like how some force-strong creatures can't use it but are resistant?

As in our dimensions magic doesn't apply to them basically because they have different fundamental laws of nature?


True, I wasn't thinking of strictly splitting the classifications, more of setting them so we know whats there.

[Amperzand]

Basically have the people without any magic, who use highly utilitarian, industrial technology, and the people who already had magic, but decided to create thaumotechnical alternatives when pure magic turned out ineffective.

[Urdothor]

Basically have the people without any magic, who use highly utilitarian, industrial technology, and the people who already had magic, but decided to create thaumotechnical alternatives when pure magic turned out ineffective.

Don't forget the neutral parties who try to ignore the whole thing and go about their daily lives without changing, in hopes one day everything just goes away. 

@Bearskie
To elaborate on my earlier statement regarding mundanity, some creatures will obviously be stronger magicly than others. Everyone will in some way be magical. Just not necessarily in a fireball flinging way. Something like a prey animal who becomes resistant to its magical predators, or some such?

[Bearskie]

Yeah, I understand. Although I suggest we do not tie those tags in terms of x have xx properties, y has yy properties, etc. For example, I might want to have a mundane creature that is weak to magic. You can still have creature classification tags, of course, they'll just serve other purposes (social interactions, curses).

For magical defense, perhaps something like MAGIC_RESIST/MAGIC_IMMUNE/MAGIC_WEAK as classes. It's more modular - modders can just slap the tag on whichever creature they want to have the passive magic resistance, without having to force them to be mundane or technological creatures.

[Urdothor]

Yeah, I understand. Although I suggest we do not tie those tags in terms of x have xx properties, y has yy properties, etc. For example, I might want to have a mundane creature that is weak to magic. You can still have creature classification tags, of course, they'll just serve other purposes (social interactions, curses).

For magical defense, perhaps something like MAGIC_RESIST/MAGIC_IMMUNE/MAGIC_WEAK as classes. It's more modular - modders can just slap the tag on whichever creature they want to have the passive magic resistance, without having to force them to be mundane or technological creatures.

That seems like a good idea of how to go about it. Can you think of any other passive magic abilities besides a general resistance?

[Amperzand]

Vampire-esque lifesense, for one.

[Bearskie]

Small problem with the magic-resist & magic-weak classes is that modders may have to write different effects for different resistance levels. Might get a little hairy. Too many classes will confuse newbies and make modding efforts too rigid.

[Urdothor]

Small problem with the magic-resist & magic-weak classes is that modders may have to write different effects for different resistance levels. Might get a little hairy. Too many classes will confuse newbies and make modding efforts too rigid.

So, in regards to magic, we'll have
Mundane
Magic Resistant
Magic Immune
Magic User

Does that sound about right? And maybe Magic resistant creatures get a second passive boost, or if we want a different passive boost, we class it mundane but give it the passive boost?

Edit: We can actually do resistances in syndromes now, can't we?
Also, are Active magic users resistant, immune, or vulnerable, to magic?

[Bearskie]

It feels too complex at the moment, like I'm playing a D&D game instead of DF.

Let's just roll with what we've got. Complex systems can come later.

[Urdothor]

It feels too complex at the moment, like I'm playing a D&D game instead of DF.

Let's just roll with what we've got. Complex systems can come later.

What's the issue with D&D? 
Alright, so what exactly do we have set in place? There's been a lot of proposals.

[Amperzand]

I'd say magic users should have no inherent resistance to magic, but be capable of getting it elsewhere.

[Urdothor]

We tend to throw a lot of proposals out on here. I feel like I'm going to forget everything we decide upon unless we take some time to make a list.

Agreed Upon:
~Standardized creature classes and reaction classes
~Theme: Magical plane, in which extra-dimensional being have invaded, and some inhabitants are taking up technology
~Some kind of passive/active magic system?
~Extradimensional magic being much more chaotic

Proposals:
~Vanilla templates versus From scratch
~New Color palette
~How we intend to classify magic, technological, and extradimensional creatures

Have I missed anything?

[Cerapter]

I gotta say, I'm already not liking this mass-theorising before we even started.

Well, NOT not liking, but this isn't how the previous two were done is what I'm saying, I guess. As an example, those things that made Stonesense work, those were not planned to be included from the very start, and yet they still got in.

So, basically, I didn't come here to make the next Hearts of Victoria Dwarfiopa Univeralis Kings V. Even before this we had themes, and if we wanted some standard, well... it was just included midway in. I don't want to decide about whether mundane creatures get 10% or 20% magical defence in hills if they're the attacker, because frankly, nobody cares.

Already we will be having difficulties communicating to the players different new ideas, as the best we can do is make a documentation that like 80% won't read.

---

However, I'm not saying we shouldn't HAVE any plans. Of course, include various levels of magical resistance (my suggestion would be to make it as generic as possible: MAGIC_WEAK, MAGIC_MID, MAGIC_RESIST, MAGIC_IMMUNE) but don't decide on shit like, magic users are inherently weak or that invaders and inherently immune. Let the people who create those races later on decide what they want to do.

...Though I'd suggest making magic a material, the giving creatures a [MATERIAL_FORCE_MULTIPLIER] token. That'd make them weak/strong against magical attacks, and magic could be VERY versatile. Injected / drunk / touch-based magic could be resisted / enhanced by the [SYNDROME_DILUTION_FACTOR] token.

EDIT: Urdothor posted while I was writing this.

[Urdothor]

Well, we should hopefully be starting by the end of today. I'm phenomenally close to being done.

The mass theorizing, I suppose, started as an attempt to lay down some basic ground work. I feel like the other two fell once they started tossing in things willy-nilly... that isn't the word I want. Just, Chaos is good for this idea yes, but it has to be tempered chaos, if that makes any sense?

Like my idea to have any small addition other modders want to make added in between turns. That way, it doesn't mess with the modder's work, and we know that the newest, working model of the whatever, is put in.

Edit: As to communication, should I put up some sort of ideas list then?

[Cerapter]

We could definitely use a list of proposed / accepted ideas somewhere on the main page. On the same list, the later accepted standards should be included as well.

Further, we really should have a documentation regarding... everything in the mod. Not necessarily reactions or items, they can be given definitions now, but everything else, yes.