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Author Topic: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)  (Read 58226 times)

Xantalos

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #375 on: January 08, 2016, 05:32:51 am »

See, regarding Phasma, I know she was supposed to be the new Boba Fett but I don't get how she was supposed to be badass at all. All she does in the movie is get really easily deceived by FN21087 when he said he was fine when he clearly wasn't, and then get captured by Han and Finn like a dumbass. The only line of hers I remember is 'you won't get away with this' which is less threatening than 'NEXT TIME, GADGET!'
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Reelya

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #376 on: January 08, 2016, 06:16:18 am »

Unknown parts of the galaxy aren't much of a stretch to the imagination. We can take exploration of the Earth as a metaphor. While we have satellite maps etc, there a vast stretches of Earth with hundreds of yet-uncontacted tribes that no member of a "modern" human civilization has ever set foot in.

Sure, our modern tech lets us map the galaxy, but that comparison falls apart when you realize we know literally nothing about many civilizations, flora and fauna right on our own planet.

Starver

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #377 on: January 08, 2016, 07:00:16 am »

Unknown parts of the galaxy aren't much of a stretch to the imagination. We can take exploration of the Earth as a metaphor. While we have satellite maps etc, there a vast stretches of Earth with hundreds of yet-uncontacted tribes that no member of a "modern" human civilization has ever set foot in.

Sure, our modern tech lets us map the galaxy, but that comparison falls apart when you realize we know literally nothing about many civilizations, flora and fauna right on our own planet.
It's the 'puzzle piece' nature of the unknown/missing part that gets me.  I could understand it if a (much smaller!) area of the galaxy was hidden, Krikkit-wise, behind a dust cloud of some sort (which would require specific navigational information to safely traverse, perhaps).  Also perhaps within a densely packed stellar nursery, or where stars are rapidly shifting through due to gravitational forces, e.g. at the centre of the galaxy.  (Or, at a pinch, at the centre of the galaxy but with a similar twist to Star Trek and it's "prison for 'God'" idea...  no, wait, that was a stupid plot... don't anyone try that one again!  Please!)  Or just an actual zone of outer-outer-rim where the density of stars is so low that you wouldn't miss a gap.

And then there's the hiding of a single planet/system.  It's provably possible (at least until people start wondering if there's more than one Kamino out there, and data-crunch all the maps for the same anomalies), although from a fan perspective it would be a bit lazy to re-use a Prequel Trilogy element of this kind in the Sequel Trilogy, without taking the trouble to make it into a clever reference or subverting it (e.g. making it something surrounded by fake star-systems of patently no interest to stop anyone looking closely at where the real system lies).

But what they do is plant an obvious marker to anyone who idly zooms out the galactic map, in a moment of boredom, and spots a huge chunk missing from the galactic disc, ripe for exploration and (re-)mapping.  Even if they don't realise that they're liable to trip up over a self-isolating Jedi...

(Unless he's 'done a Mule' on the whole galaxy...)

Looks good.  Would perhaps work in a classic carefully-controlled point'n'click puzzle-driven adventure game, but somewhat strains the credulity...  IMO.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #378 on: January 08, 2016, 07:03:40 am »

Maybe it's that he split his map in two, but wiped the First Temple from ALL the records?
I don't know, that was always kind of a stupid thing with that map, to me.
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Reelya

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #379 on: January 08, 2016, 07:23:40 am »

Wasn't the point that the map wasn't labelled? They just had some unlabelled stars, not necessarily all unknown ones. That's what the dialogue said - that they didn't know where these particular stars were, nothing about them being unknown or unexplored.

Back to the Earth analogy, it would be like having a map of some random small islands, but you have no idea where those islands are. The outer-map then gives you the context - "oh, it's in the indonesian archipelago" which narrows down where to look for the right-shaped islands. You probably already knew those islands existed, you just didn't have enough data to narrow down which bunch of islands to take a closer look at. With 300 billion stars in our galaxy as an estimate, a couple of dozen unlabelled stars on a map could be just about anywhere.

Starver

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #380 on: January 08, 2016, 09:06:14 am »

Wasn't the point that the map wasn't labelled? They just had some unlabelled stars, not necessarily all unknown ones. That's what the dialogue said - that they didn't know where these particular stars were, nothing about them being unknown or unexplored.
ICBR, but the "rest of the galaxy map" provided by R2 had a huge gap.

The way I understood it, they couldn't fit the piece to any map they had.  I think I'm supposed to believe that it needed the "obvious gap map" to know where it fit because it would be impossible without the clue, but I have to dismiss that, because the problem of fitting to a full-chart is simple enough for the processing power within any technically-minded droid (not just that rather special R2 unit, with the Power Of Plot running through it) or mapping system.

Here's how I would do it.  Even assuming the clue-chunk is of unknown scale and orientation.

1) Pick the two closest stars in the chunk, and the third star that is the next closest to either of them.
2) Cycle through every star in the galaxy and its closest registered neighbour (an O(n) function, rather than the worst-case scenario of O(!n) that you might expect), which can be simplified further if the chunk has more details, such as relative sizes of the two chunk-stars chosen, to rule out some pairs immediately.
3) Scale and rotate the chunk so that the chunk-pair sit over the galaxy-pair (both directions if it doesn't have size-info... doubling the operations, but still order-'n') and then check for rotations so that chunk star 3 sits on a suitable galaxy star 3.  Again, just a multiplier, so still O(n) to rule out all obviously wrong types.
4) If not ruled out, you now have a chunk fixed to a scale and angle upon the galaxy map whereupon you can quickly test a fourth star for a match, a fifth star to match, etc, at each stage shedding 99.99...% of the coincidences up until that point (at which point you try your next third-star search-angle, star-pair directionality (if relevant) and then first star of a new pair, reversing back out of each level of checking).

There are two immediate problems with this approach, that I'd anticipate:
a) Inaccuracies/time-wise positional differences in either (i.e. both) of the maps - solution is to allow an error-bar, letting a few more 'possibles' through (and perhaps some scale/angle jiggling iterations, still linear) before being ruled out.
b) Further Kominos, or (conversley) some stellar form of an Argleton, featuring within either pairing or incorrectly ruling out third+ star matching - solution being to double the effort and choose a second (unrelated) pair to have a go at, and allow at least one negative-match without discarding the general chunk-on-reality cross-referencing process, which could also solve point (a) when it's a single fast-moving star (or small number of them!) without clarified time-indexing that causes the inaccuracies.

...so about 2 seconds?  If I haven't missed a power of 10 or three in the wrong direction through error or wrongly-generous assumptions, along the way; but even if it's 2000 seconds that's half an hour of work.


But I didn't even read that idea into the film, when I saw it...  As far as I'm concerned the R2-projection (into which the BB8-held data is inserted) is just the latest actual map as of the point in time he decided to also withdraw from the world, into his electronic stupor.  But, if I'm mistaken (possible), it still seems too Deus-ex-R2 to require 'all but the clue' to answer the problem.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #381 on: January 08, 2016, 09:27:58 am »

...Well, then.
Whoo-ee.
Although, the Resistance's computers were probably tied up with existing stuff.
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Reelya

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #382 on: January 08, 2016, 09:50:56 am »

Was the rest of the map "the whole galaxy"? It didn't look like that to me, nor did they say it was the "whole galaxy". That seems to be a huge assumption you're running with there. We'll be able to pinpoint this sort of thing better once it's on sale on disk and we can screen shot things, but I don't think it's correct that the piece was a missing chunk of the entire galaxy. As far as I could tell from watching the movie was that the completed map was merely some sector of the galaxy, not the entire place.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 09:55:51 am by Reelya »
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #383 on: January 08, 2016, 10:05:53 am »

I liked the lightsaber fight the most out of all the films. I think I've said this earlier, but to me, the prequel fights just looked like two (sometimes 3) people banging light-up sticks together until one of them get's a limb chopped off. In this one, the combatants were injured time and time again, but they kept fighting and cutting each other. I don't know about everybody else, but I liked the fight.
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hector13

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #384 on: January 08, 2016, 10:10:06 am »

It was basically a Disney lightsaber fight. Can't say I enjoyed it, it didn't seem... visceral enough? Lots of poking folk with burnt weapons, even a big slash at one point (Finn should be dead) and a bit of a crap scar. They weren't all that great, Kylo Ren just seems to be a stormtrooper as a Jedi - can't hit what he's aiming at.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #385 on: January 08, 2016, 10:26:58 am »

1) I don't get Kylo Ren's lightsaber design. Even in-lore it has no imaginable purpose and it simply not cool enough. A sword's crossguard was designed to protect the hands of the sword fighter when an enemy's blade slides on the holder's blade and to prevent the hand from slipping toward the blade with a forward thrust. Ren's crossguard doesn't fulfill any of these functions since the lightsabers shouldn't slide on each other and even if they do, an enemy's lightsaber sliding will cut through the metallic parts which are extended out and exposed. the lightsabre blade is made of near weightless plasma which will provide no "recoil" when thrusting it against something. if it was just non functional it would have been passable to imagine that an emo teen character would do it to look cool, but it actually hinders Ren's abilities in battle as he has far less freedom of blade movement because of the crossguard.
It is a functional design, it's just not a crossguard. Even aside from it being an unstable lightsaber with, according to some promotional material, a cracked crystal, the purpose of the exhaust blades isn't to be a crossguard. As we see in Kylo v. Finn, the purpose is to stab the other guy during the blade locks that happen in every single lightsaber fight.
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Vilanat

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #386 on: January 08, 2016, 11:03:13 am »

Wasn't the point that the map wasn't labelled? They just had some unlabelled stars, not necessarily all unknown ones. That's what the dialogue said - that they didn't know where these particular stars were, nothing about them being unknown or unexplored.

Back to the Earth analogy, it would be like having a map of some random small islands, but you have no idea where those islands are. The outer-map then gives you the context - "oh, it's in the indonesian archipelago" which narrows down where to look for the right-shaped islands. You probably already knew those islands existed, you just didn't have enough data to narrow down which bunch of islands to take a closer look at. With 300 billion stars in our galaxy as an estimate, a couple of dozen unlabelled stars on a map could be just about anywhere.

That's why i said i can accept "Unexplored" but i can't accept unknown. take any group of islands on earth, explored or not, and you could find their location without needing to know their region at all.

But I didn't even read that idea into the film, when I saw it...  As far as I'm concerned the R2-projection (into which the BB8-held data is inserted) is just the latest actual map as of the point in time he decided to also withdraw from the world, into his electronic stupor.  But, if I'm mistaken (possible), it still seems too Deus-ex-R2 to require 'all but the clue' to answer the problem.

The galaxy doesn't change too much in 60 years.

The funny thing is that it would have probably taken Rey far more time to find Luke on an entire planet than it would have to find the planet using only the missing part. but i guess that could easily be explained by a radio signal that Luke emits, with the thought that if they managed to come this long, might just spare them the actual trouble.

It is a functional design, it's just not a crossguard. Even aside from it being an unstable lightsaber with, according to some promotional material, a cracked crystal, the purpose of the exhaust blades isn't to be a crossguard. As we see in Kylo v. Finn, the purpose is to stab the other guy during the blade locks that happen in every single lightsaber fight.

Yeah, that's something sword fighters used the crossguard for as well. seems like a redundant thing to have if the thing limits the actual sword fighting.
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Starver

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #387 on: January 08, 2016, 11:06:28 am »

but i guess that could easily be explained by a radio signal that Luke emits, with the thought that if they managed to come this long, might just spare them the actual trouble.

James Bond's "smart blood" tracker, obviously... ;)
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Reelya

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #388 on: January 08, 2016, 11:10:01 am »

Rey could use the force to track Luke down. which would also explain how Luke was able to land on Degobah a stones-throw away from Yoda.

Although for Luke it would have to be subconsciously lead by the force, but not for Rey. She's so quick at picking up on how to use the force it's ridiculous. Jedi Mind Trick on her first try, telekinesis on her first try, without needing to be shown that either thing even exists.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:13:43 am by Reelya »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion Thread (spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #389 on: January 08, 2016, 11:51:20 am »

Jedi Mind Trick on her first try
Third try. While I agree she's a generally pandering character, there is some redeeming value in that they set it up with everyone knowing about the stories of force users but just not believing them. Once she's got proof that it's actually real it makes sense to try to do the things Jedi are supposed to be able to do.
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