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More maneuvers

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Better/more AI  

1 (33.3%)

Multiple battles/Campaign mode

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More wounds/status effects

1 (33.3%)

Items and Equipment

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Two player hotseat

1 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 3

[bahihs]

I don't really know where else to put this.

Basically I'd like to make a combat simulator which is similar to the one I so admire in Dwarf Fortress. The end goal is to create a multiplayer text-based/ASCII fighting game (like street fighter or soul caliber but..text). This isn't for any commercial purpose, just as a learning project.

What I'm primarily interested in is the way the body systems/parts are implemented in DF. As well as combat physics (which I assume determine things like accuracy and "damage"). I'm obviously not asking for any actual code (I don't even know C++ that well; I'll be using python) but just ideas for how to implement these things (even just speculation on how they are implemented in DF would help).

For some more details on the game:

Spoiler: Game Details (click to show/hide)

Its basically like DF arena mode. Small room. Two players. Turn-based. Each player has some amount of time to think (i.e timer) and make a move (similar to the Shift+A menu in DF adventure mode). I want DF level detail but only with regards to combat. Ideally game addresses three things:

1. Realism - The combat should be simulation-first
2. Variability - Many different types of strategies should be viable, with many different choices (otherwise there's really no point to the game )
3. Environment - You should be able to use your environment (high ground, footing, jumping off stuff, hanging from stuff, throwing sand/dirt in someone's face, etc.)

Here's what I know so far:

1. Body Systems

It looks like all the major body systems are simulated except for excretory and digestive (which makes sense for the purposes of combat). The latter is partly implemented since you can get nauseous with blows to the stomach and even vomit if the nausea is great enough.

The nervous system determines "life" and "death" (i.e damage to the brain), but also controls motor movement and sensory perception (sight, smell, hearing and touch, though the latter seems cosmetic). There seem to be "nerves" to each body part, which, if damaged, render that body part useless. I don't actually know how they work though, whether each body part is localized with its own set of nerves or if the nerves are actually part of the whole nervous system, or both. The nerves, I would also assume control pain, but usually the pain comes from the breaking of bones. Perhaps the sensory nerves are supposed to control this? Along with pain there is also the "stunned" status which seems to lower speed. I am unsure if that has to do with nervous system though.

The skeletal system provides support for the body. Breaking a leg usually results in the opponent falling down and unable to stand. Similarly breaking an arm or a hand or even a finger, will result in the opponent dropping his weapon. Also there is the well known intense pain associated with bone breaking leading to unconsciousness, though I am unsure whether this is intentional or just a bug. It seems like all the major bones are simulated but none are done so by name (e.g femur, ulna, etc. its for the best probably). This leads me to believe the bodies in game are made up of parts rather than being a cohesive whole (i.e the same parts which show up in the target selection menu) and that each part has bones, nerves, muscles, etc. Again, I'm not sure.

The respiratory/circulatory system consists of the heart and lungs and of veins and arteries. Like the skeletal system the blood vessels are not named. Damage to the blood vessels result in bleeding. Excessive bleeding I assume leads to shock/fainting, then death (which itself is caused by lack of oxygen via blood to the brain) though I'm not sure how this is implemented in the game. I don't know how time really works either (discussed below), but usually a severed limb results in "heavy bleeding" but does not often lead quickly to death. Damage to the heart or lungs is a "mortal wound" which does lead to death, albeit not an immediate one.

The muscular system doesn't really seem to do anything except act as a kind of armor to the more deeper and important tissue (nervous, skeletal and circulatory). I think it may also control stamina, though I'm not sure. As far as I know, repeatedly damaging muscle tissue doesn't really do much of anything. However if you damage it enough I do know you can pulp that particular body part. I could be wrong though, there might be other effects.

2. Combat Physics

In order to begin considering this we have to first look how time is implemented.

a. Time

Time seems to be divided into discrete units. I think these units are constant. I don't actually know how they are determined however. I do know the "," key moves time forward 1 tick and the "." moves it forward more than 1 (10?) tick.

All creatures have a speed. I don't actually know how this speed is calculated, but it seems to be a ratio. A speed of 1.0 therefore represents the "standard" and everything else is just a proportion to this standard. I suspect the standards may be different species to species and even character to character (high agility might influence this). There also seems to be a different speed for combat actions which I believe is more heavily influenced by the agility stat (and maybe the kinesthetic sense stat). I have no idea how this is calculated. But it is a certainty that there are several variables involved and that different characters have different combat speed. The speed, I think determines how much you can do in a time unit. I suspect actions are described in terms of a number of time units, though I can only speculate as to how the actions are executed (e.g are simultaneous blows possible?)

b. Physics

Now Toady is a mathematician by profession so I assume the physics system is quite complex. However I think for the purposes of combat, Newtonian mechanics are what is used. If that's true we can boil the combat down to two things: force and area. I wonder if the different "types" of damage (blunt, cutting etc.) are implemented specifically or if they are just the consequence of the calculations the game makes (e.g whether cutting damage is just force in a narrow band or piercing damage just force at a small point etc.) I suspect the former, but I'm not sure.

According to the wiki, weapon forces are influenced by a number of factors, including the size of the weapon, the material and the shape as well as the strength of the user. I don't know the specific formulas used, but I assume something close to reality is used as much as possible.

c. Damage

I'm curious to know how force translates to damage to the body systems. I assume there are some threshold values, if the force is greater than those thresholds than some effect happens. However, if we consider armor, enemies can sometimes penetrate the armor, therefore there is also some element of randomness.

Any help in clearing some of this up would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Max™]

Look at what Toribash does?

The only game I tried and found harder to get the hang of than DF, never did get any good at it, but I did once kick the training dummy hard enough to knock an arm off, do a weird little breakdance twirl, handspring and kick their head off then in mid-air pulled my own head off, as I recall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0l9NVcPlDY

[bahihs]

Look at what Toribash does?

The only game I tried and found harder to get the hang of than DF, never did get any good at it, but I did once kick the training dummy hard enough to knock an arm off, do a weird little breakdance twirl, handspring and kick their head off then in mid-air pulled my own head off, as I recall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0l9NVcPlDY

Toribash is cool, but not really what I'm looking for.  Toribash is more of a physics sim, whereas mine is purely a combat sim. 

Actually as I've begun fleshing this out I'm beginning to see the physics become abstracted and simplified. At this point I just have a "Force" value which is calculated from the combination of several different variables, then this force goes through several different transformations ("type" of force determined by the area - cutting, bashing etc., then the penetration of the force determined by type, finally the type of tissue damage depending on penetration) which finally leads to "wounds".

In the end I decided to go with something similar to the combat in "The Riddle of Steel" rpg. But with a more complex wounds system.

If any one is interested here's what I have so far:

Spoiler: Current Combat System (click to show/hide)

Combat is done in rounds of 2, 1 second exchanges. Each round is therefore 2 seconds long.

0. Stance - Each player first chooses a stance which gives an advantage in exchange for flexibility
1. Initiative - Each player chooses (secretly) whether to attack or defend this exchange. Then they reveal at the same time. Attacker attacks, defender defends
2. Exchange - Based on the result of 1, the attacker has access to certain actions; the defender has access to different actions. They both choose an action and decide how much they will commit to this exchange
3. Calculations are done to determine whether the attacker hits, draws or fails. If he hits go to 4, if he draws go to 5, if he fails go to 2 with the roles (attacker and defender) reversed, as the defender has taken the initiative by a successful defence
4. Damage is calculated based on the amount of force of the blow and the weapon used and the target of the blow. I say "damage" but its really a physical wound
5. Change any variables that need to be changed as a result of the wound, then do 2-4 as necessary for the round

In between rounds, players can move around, taunt each other and interact with the environment

Certain attributes control the amount of information the player receives (e.g High enough perception will tell you when/if the opponent is feinting, or how much he is committing to the blow, or where he is going to strike; whereas low visibility or blindness will make it difficult to see what you're opponent is doing).

I can put the full docs I'm writing if anyone is interested. Though I don't know if it would be appropriate in this sub-forum (maybe creative projects?).

[Thorgrim Grudgebearer]

Good luck to you man sounds like a awesome idea would like to see this actually made. Definitely gonna follow this one.

[bahihs]

Here are the current docs/plan for the game (partly stolen from a different thread of mine):

Spoiler: Docs (click to show/hide)

Purpose - Simulate 1v1 duels between humaniods

= Main Project =
# Before the battle
- Inherent biological characteristics (stats/abilities): This represents the
  maximum, inherent potential of a combatant
    * Constitution - Affects how hard you can hit and how hard you can get hit
    * Kinesthetics - Affects cost of doing special manuevers and accuracy
    * Agility - Affects accuracy and combat pool
    * Perception - Affects accuracy, feints, how much info you get
    * Willpower - Affects resliency to mental attack (fatigue, pain, fear)
- Learned characteristics (skills/combat styles/techniques): The combination of
  applicable knowledge learned through experience and training
    * Skills - Determine combat pool, modify TN of weapon
    * Combat Styles - Determine manuevers and their costs
    * Manuevers/Techniques - Determine what actions you can do in battle
- Tools (weapons/armor/items): Involves the characteristics of the tools of
  combat, determined by its material and craftsmanship
    * Weapons - Modifies target number, determines type of damage.
    * Armor - Adds to physical resistance, another layer to penetrate
    * Items - Misc.

# During the exchange of blows
- Time (preferably "real-time", like GURPS or Riddle of Steel): "time-slices"
  of arbitrary size, where actions occur according to the combatants initiative
    * 2 second Rounds, 2, 1 second exchanges
    * Combat pool represents max that can be done in an exchange
    * Time flows differently outside of rounds
- Space (No tactical map will be used, so we need get creative): no game map,
  the spacial environment needs to be described in a concrete, usable way.
  Movement within this space, also goes here.
    * By description of surroundings
        * Randomly generated based on "setting"
        * Determines terrain modifiers by keywords
    * Movement can only be done between rounds
    * PC can interact with the environment in several ways:
        * Climbing/Hanging/Swinging
        * Jumping
        * Rolling
        * Walking/Running/Sprinting
        * Sneaking
    * Avaiable actions based on keywords of description (tree branch, hill
    etc.)
    * Unhindered movement done by a terrain roll
    * Distance is descriptive: near, away, far
        * Determines certain manuevers (e.g sneaking)
- Accuracy (Whether and where, the attack hits): One of the "big two" of
  combat, the other being "Force".
    * Variables to determine whether you hit:
        * Proficency/skill - Through combat pool and affecting weapon TN
        * Speed (yours vs opponents) - Through combat pool
        * Terrain - Through the TN
        * Mentality/Morale - Through TN
        * Perception/Reflex - By revealing more information
        * Size of target - Through TN
        * Weapon - Through TN, Pool cost based on range difference
    * PC chooses from a list of major targets, then minor targets (at a
    penalty) or allows random choice of the minor targets
    * A labeled diagram of the targets instead of a list
    * Defender may choose a target to defend for bonus/penalty
- Force (The "hardness" of the hit): The other of the "big two", represents how
  much harm the blow does (the harm need not be physical, a strong or expert
  blow can knock a weapon away, or stun the opponent)
    * Variables to determine severity of blow:
        * Physical force, F=ma
            * Physical strength (a)
            * Weapon weight (m)
            * Accuracy roll difference (a)
        * Target
            * Different targets have different effects
        * Weapon
            * Different types of weapon inflict different kinds of damage
            * Type of damage determined by Force/Area calculation
                * Thin band - Cutting
                * Flat band - Bashing
                * Small circle - Piercing
        * Damage
            * First determine the amount and type of force (see above)
            * Then determine the location
            * Use the force and the location to determine penetration
            * Use penetration to determine what happens
                * Nerves - Motor movement, pain
                * Arteries - Bleeding
                * Muscles - Pain, shock
                * Organs - Mortal wounds
            * Death from brain shutting down
- Tactics (Elements which affect the above four; high ground, footing,
  visibility, numbers etc.): This is what separates combat from a mere skill
  check and what actually makes it interesting/deep. Everything from feinting
  to differences in terrain to trash-talking falls under this
    * Enviornmental factors - Terrain rolls
    * Feinting - Manuever
    * Taunting/Mental attacks - Affects mental state

# After the exchange of blows
- Bodily harm (Wounds i.e damage to tissues and organs): The big question is
  how is this represented? HP? Wound Levels? Something else?
    * Simulate body parts composed of tissues
    * Force causes damage to the tissues dependent on penetration
- Mental harm (Shock from a hit, fatigue, fear, anger): Affects the next
  immediate exchange, but usually little else. Again, book-keeping kept to a
  minimum, how?
    * Damage to different tissues has different effects
    * These effects modify variables which in turn modify the combat pool
    * The effects can include damage to the mental state (pain, fear, anger,
    shock, fatigue)
- Change in condition (caused by the above two; stunned, bleeding, knocked
  over, crippled etc.): These are the manifested effects as the above two
  accumulate.

== Minimal Viable Product ==

# Before the battle
    - Simulate a basic (empty/flat) enviornment
        * One key word
    - Create a character
        * Composed of body parts with HP
            * Head, torso, arms, legs
        * Has sword skill only
        * 3 manuevers: cut, dodge, parry
        * Has only a sword, 1 piece of armor (helmet)
# During the battle
    - Time counter just for keeping track
    - Combat pools determined from stats+skills
        * Simple bionomial probablity
    - Movement outside of rounds: Walk, interact with the one keyword
    - Accuracy and Force implemented
    - Player can choose one of the 4 targets from a list
    - Damage done through explict "type" instead of a Force/Area calculation
# After the battle
    - Amount of HP damage determines severity instead of direct tissue damage
    - No mental effects
    - One status effect: Bleeding

== UI ==

# Main Menu
    # Create character
        * Name
        * Stats
        * Skills
    # Fight
        * Randomly generate another character to fight against
        * Show options, press buttons to move back and forth through menus
    # Exit

= Combat Flow =

# Declare stances
    * Modify variables as a result of stance
# Do initiative - Three situations
    * Beginning of round - Ask user for init
    * Middle of round - Carry over from result of last exchange
    * Buy initiative - Ask user before choosing manuever
# Execute manuevers - 4 situations
    * D vs D - Chars circle, ask init again next exchange
    * A vs A - Chars both strike, don't compare rolls, calculate higher reflex
                first
    * A vs D/D vs A - One char strikes, other defends. Compare rolls. Winner
                        determines init for next exchange
# Resolve manuevers
    * Execute manuever function to deal damage/print messages/modify variables
# If first exchange, do another exchange
# Otherwise refresh combat pool start from init

The "minimal viable product" has essentially been coded. The question now is do I attempt to make some sort of map, or keep it strictly text. I am leaning heavily toward the latter, since it would avoid using any libraries or other fancy stuff. Also since the purpose of the game is purely combat, a map isn't really necessary (consider street fighter, the background hardly makes a difference to the actual fight). However, since interaction with the environment is something I want to include, the best I could come up with is a paragraph of randomly generated text which serves as the "setting" or "map". This paragraph includes some "keywords", these keywords represent "features" in the setting which can interacted with. For example, in the minimal viable product, the setting is a desert (completely flat and devoid of features and therefore easy to code ). The only feature it has is "sand" and the only interaction with sand is to throw it in some one's eyes to blind them (haven't implemented what blinding actually does though).

If anyone is interested I can post the code and an .exe so you can test out the game. Right now its very bare bones. There's no AI, so you play both sides (or you can play hotseat). There's only one type of character (Swordsman, either high Agility or high Constitution). Easiest way to win right now, is just cause the other person to bleed (dropping their agility) then spam attacks to the head, hoping to cut it off.

I'm hoping to have something decent by the end of this winter break (~mid Feb). I can keep this post updated, but I'm wondering if I would have to move it to "Creative Projects" (since its becoming less and less about DF)? (How would I actually move it btw?)

[FallacyofUrist]

I think there's a "move thread" think at the bottom of the page.
good luck to you.

[bahihs]

I think there's a "move thread" think at the bottom of the page.
good luck to you.

Indeed there is. Thank you.

[bahihs]

Finished building a crude AI. I think I'll upload the .exe of the game tomorrow (I want to add some more user functionality, like choosing your own name).

[bahihs]

First version can be downloaded here, just extract the zip and run the exe.

I would really appreciate any feedback. Of course, the game is, again, very bare bones right now. One thing I want to experiment with is text menus. Does anyone know any modules/libraries for python which allow for text UI's?

EDIT: There were a few small bugs in the program which I fixed (player could not choose to defend for example). The file should be updated so you can use the same link to download. Sorry about that.

[kytuzian]

I don't suppose a mac version is likely?

[bahihs]

I don't suppose a mac version is likely?

Actually it should work already. Pyinstaller (module used to make the exe) should make the program mac and linux-compatible as well. If you tried it and got an error, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

[bahihs]

New version is up.

You can get it here (same place as before). Again any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

I've added:

- A basic main menu (work in progress)
- Ability to create your own characters (work in progress), at least with regards to stats
- Better body part system with wounds and injuries instead of simple HP (work in-well you get the point)

[kytuzian]

I don't suppose a mac version is likely?

Actually it should work already. Pyinstaller (module used to make the exe) should make the program mac and linux-compatible as well. If you tried it and got an error, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

I don't see the base .py files in there, only the .exe

[bahihs]

I don't suppose a mac version is likely?

Actually it should work already. Pyinstaller (module used to make the exe) should make the program mac and linux-compatible as well. If you tried it and got an error, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

I don't see the base .py files in there, only the .exe

EDIT: Also, if any kind soul wants to use pyinstaller to compile it his/herself on linux and/or mac and post it for others, that would be cool. This program will never be commercial, so you can do whatever you like with it. 

Oops, it seems I was mistaken earlier. I have to compile the program in each of the three different platforms (Win, Mac and Linux) that will then generate 3 different versions, each one compatible with its respective platform.

This will take some work, as I'll have to mess around with Virtual Machines to emulate each of the platforms. For now I've updated the file to include a folder with all the base .py files so that it can be run on any environment so long as python (2.7) is installed (I didn't use any third-party libraries, so it should be good to go).

Sorry about that, but I should hopefully have the linux and mac compatible versions in the future.

You can still use the link in the previous post as I've updated the file.

[kytuzian]

Oops, it seems I was mistaken earlier. I have to compile the program in each of the three different platforms (Win, Mac and Linux) that will then generate 3 different versions, each one compatible with its respective platform.

This will take some work, as I'll have to mess around with Virtual Machines to emulate each of the platforms. For now I've updated the file to include a folder with all the base .py files so that it can be run on any environment so long as python (2.7) is installed (I didn't use any third-party libraries, so it should be good to go).

Sorry about that, but I should hopefully have the linux and mac compatible versions in the future.

You can still use the link in the previous post as I've updated the file.

Alright, well on Mac and most Linux distributions (I think), Python 2.7 comes preinstalled, so its not a problem, the problem is people being able to find it and run it from the terminal, but I think most people can handle that.

Also it took me a couple more steps to get it to work, because I don't have PIL on my computer. Instead, I converted the background image to a .gif then used Tkinter's PhotoImage class to load it. I'd suggest that approach because it's more cross-platform.

Also I realize its a work in progress, but I think it'd be good to have sliders as well as a text field for entering in your character's stats, because I personally have no idea what sorts of numbers are reasonable. I didn't play around with it too much other than making a character though.