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Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion/debate?

Yes
- 21 (27.3%)
No
- 45 (58.4%)
Not decided entirely, maybe
- 11 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 76


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Author Topic: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?  (Read 30523 times)

wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #120 on: December 23, 2015, 12:45:04 am »

I prefer the older term, "echo chamber"-- eg, staying with a group with the same opinions and worldviews, since that reinforces the existing opinions and worldviews of the individual who stays there.

I prefer more cosmopolitan forums, which have people all over the spectrum. It is also why I never use mute or ignore features, even on people I strongly disagree with.  I dont want to live in an echo chamber.

That aside, Yes, the problem with SJWs is that they add noise to the actual channel of social comminication by raising a stink "in the name of" some disadvantaged group that they do not belong to.

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jaked122

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #121 on: December 23, 2015, 12:46:05 am »

Arguments get just as crazy, inconclusive, and even more violent when you're there in person -- the internet doesn't necessarily amplify it, it's just that the folks screaming get heard beyond the boundaries of their buildings.


Reminds me when I was walking down a street at night and a guy leaned out of the window of his second floor apartment and tried to convince me to give up drinking. I had been drinking, but only one beer. I was trying to figure out the best way to stop talking to him, but instead I just let him yell at me about how it would be the best decision I ever made.


That night was weird.

Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #122 on: December 23, 2015, 01:05:15 am »

I prefer the older term, "echo chamber"-- eg, staying with a group with the same opinions and worldviews, since that reinforces the existing opinions and worldviews of the individual who stays there.

Yes, "echo chamber" is definitely preferable, as it doesn't falsely differentiate Social Justice Warrior phenomena from it's counterparts on the right (such as fundamentalist churches, capitalist/Randist-objectivist/Mammonist forums, the NRA, goldbugs, and Stormfront)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #123 on: December 23, 2015, 09:27:31 am »

Recent example from history:
Hearing about communism in the soviet union, from people who lived in the soviet union.
vs
Hearing about communism in the soviet union from Joe McCarthy, and his cronies. (Or from Stalin's PR machine, either one is just as bad.)
This is not a flattering comparison. In your example, what possible motive could communists from the Soviet Union talking about communism have for talking one way or the other?

It is important to keep in mind that there does not need to be an obviously malign agenda, like with the prior example. People can truely mean well with thier interjections-- The problem persists though; They are raising their own (imagined) perception of the problem, rather than using their resources to hand the mic over to people that actually experience the problem.  When that happens, they drown out the signal, and make only noise.
It is most amusing reading of blind and deaf Victorians complaining about those trying to help them making their pains most pronounced.

Another great example of both these phenomena would be the two-faced sanctimonious money-grubbing crypto-nazis who run Autism Speaks
There is a story here that demands explaining

I'm not talking about gossip magazines, I'm talking about the TV news, most of which is either celebrity gossip (including some news which at first glance appears to be legitimately politically informative; "OMG Hillary Clinton used a poor choice of words to describe the Bengazi attack!?") or else sometimes even just regular gossip (Human interest pieces. The Jonbenet Ramsey murder. etc.)
You'll have to be more specific which TV news channels you're talking about. American? Which is erm... Not the highest quality around.

I'd consider myself progressive, but I don't particularly like people who think delusionally and think everyone else should join them in their delusional thinking, whether they're "progressive" or "conservative." For example, if you think that disagreeing with someone is equivalent to personally attacking them. Or anyone who ignores facts in order to believe a more convenient story for their worldview. For example, the forensic evidence proves that Michael Brown was charging when he was shot and killed - but that doesn't accord with the narrative so it's ignored for unreliable witness testimony. Of course, for many people it's entirely believable that the police would fake forensic evidence to exonerate an officer - practically every time there's a shooting with a video released later it seems like the initial report by the police officers involved is completely untrue.
The George Zimmerman case was even more blatant in this regard, where a hispanic man shoots a black man who was sitting on top of him smashing his head into the pavement because he was angry about losing a fight and wanted to beat someone else up instead to get his pride back, Murrican media actually edited his police phone call to make it sound like he was a white supremacist who chased down an innocent black kid and gunned him down in cold blood - even editing out his head wounds in order to keep the reaceb8 real. The saddest thing was, despite the whole debacle occupying Murrican media for months and even Obama picking sides (conveniently detracting from the whole mass surveillance thing) no one watched the trial themself :/
It was quite disheartening to see a non-partisan issue become partisan, but it was especially intriguing to see that in spite of progressives and republicans facing off, both had either picked the right or wrong side both for the wrong reasons, neither having actually reviewed the evidence; only what had been presented to them by the scummy media.

On the original subject, it's certainly  possible to change your opinion in an internet discussion. Not getting into giant flamewars helps. Keeping an open mind helps. Recognizing when someone is right when they tell you that you're wrong helps (and controlling the urge to try to justify or make excuses for when you post something dumb and someone calls you on it, because doing that just tends to lead to flamewars).
Possible, better done with anonymity - no need to save face.

Yes, "echo chamber" is definitely preferable, as it doesn't falsely differentiate Social Justice Warrior phenomena from it's counterparts on the right (such as fundamentalist churches, capitalist/Randist-objectivist/Mammonist forums, the NRA, goldbugs, and Stormfront)
What part of the differentiation is "false"? What does someone demanding you check your privilege have in common with people telling you BUY GOLD BUY GOLD? Why would a Randian in the free market of ideas not warrant differentiation from the safe space of an SJW? Why would a fundamentalist group whose streams are prone to internet raids not warrant differentiation from SJWs that organize their social justice on those same media? Mammonists, I must say I have never seen them before. Stormfront and SJWs have the most similarity of them all, but they are not the same any more than communists and nazis are the same despite their great similarities (not surprising given which side of the oxbow they align themselves with). Take 5 minutes on Stormfront or SJW where you have to guess whether what was said was said by a neo-nazi or SJW after all the group labels have been obfuscated. Those 5 minutes are pretty much all you need to recognize the patterns in writing style, rhetoric and lexis which marks whether one's a neo-nazi or SJW. They both want to exterminate their outgroups but that's where the similarities end. These differences extend all the way through organizational structure (decentralized vs network) to tactics (protocols vs rules). Even the most similar groups only appear similarly in obnoxiousness; and certainly not in influence. This is the equivalent of people talking about jihadist terrorism and then some bloke keeps chanting "BREIVIK" - dilution of discussion achieved

Circlejerk, echo chamber, containment, wankfest, gulag, fee fees - hugbox; the differentiations are based and make people not interested in intellectual discussion infuriated. Why avoid them to appease fundamentalists?

Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #124 on: December 23, 2015, 10:33:28 am »

Another great example of both these phenomena would be the two-faced sanctimonious money-grubbing crypto-nazis who run Autism Speaks
There is a story here that demands explaining

First and foremost for a supposed disability advocacy group some of their rhetoric is extremely ableist, (and I mean bordering on Nazi-level gas-the-cripples ableist.). They're also unscrupulous fearmongers. Look up "I am Autism" for an example of both of these issues.

Furthermore nearly all of the money donated to them is swallowed up by "administrative costs".

Worst of all they also advocate eugenics, with much of the money not outright squandered or embezzled going to research to develop a prenatal test.

Yet they claim to represent the community of people with autism spectrum disorders. And they pretend to be a real disability services group, so if you criticize them, it looks like you're the one whose ableist
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 10:37:55 am by Bohandas »
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Loud Whispers

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Bohandas

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #126 on: December 23, 2015, 12:01:09 pm »

Most of their material focuses on the parents of autistic children while being dismissive at best and at times outright hostile to actual auristic people.

If the truth be told I'm glad the lady who founded it is dying of cancer.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 12:10:59 pm by Bohandas »
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Shadowlord

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #127 on: December 23, 2015, 04:32:06 pm »

The George Zimmerman case was even more blatant in this regard, where a hispanic man shoots a black man who was sitting on top of him smashing his head into the pavement because he was angry about losing a fight and wanted to beat someone else up instead to get his pride back, Murrican media actually edited his police phone call to make it sound like he was a white supremacist who chased down an innocent black kid and gunned him down in cold blood - even editing out his head wounds in order to keep the reaceb8 real. The saddest thing was, despite the whole debacle occupying Murrican media for months and even Obama picking sides (conveniently detracting from the whole mass surveillance thing) no one watched the trial themself :/
It was quite disheartening to see a non-partisan issue become partisan, but it was especially intriguing to see that in spite of progressives and republicans facing off, both had either picked the right or wrong side both for the wrong reasons, neither having actually reviewed the evidence; only what had been presented to them by the scummy media.

Do you have any citations/evidence for any of that, from a reputable source?
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wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #128 on: December 23, 2015, 04:39:11 pm »

Whispers: You misattributed the first quote block to Bohondas. It came from me.

To clarify that one point:

When discussing how communism affected the daily lives of ordinary people in the former soviet union, it is better to ask and hear from the common, ordinary people who lived their daily lives under communism in the former soviet union. They can tell you difinitively, without some political slant, exactly how life there was.

If you were to hear onlh Stalin's PR, you will hear only roses and sunshine about it.
If you were to hear only McCarthy's views, you would only hear doom and gloom about brainwashing, and other stuff concerning the dreaded "red menace."

Both Stalin and McCarthy had lots of influence over the media of their respective hemispheres. They crowded out the actual signal (people saying how life there is/was) by saturating it with thier own version as they saw it.

Depending on who you asked about life in the soviet union, it could vary from marginally backward but not altogether bad, to downright hellhole. (I know all about the Holodomor. I lost family.)

Similar happens when you talk to actual people that fall into disadvantaged demographics. What they say ranges from the "seriously, this is being blown out of proportion" side of things to the "OMG, this shit is fucked up and ruining my life!" side of things.

if you listen to the denialists, they will favor the "nothing to see here citizen, move along" angle, while the SJW focuses on the "OMG! it's ruining people's lives! we gotta act NAOW!!" angle.

The problem is that much like McCarthy and Stalin, the denialists and the SJWs have vastly more time and resources to spend promulgating their version of "Truth", which detracts and blots out the actually disadvantaged people's actual voices.

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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #129 on: December 23, 2015, 06:27:55 pm »

Do you have any citations/evidence for any of that, from a reputable source?
This messy thread

That trial was my entertainment, since all the shows and movies were absolute shit
I don't think you'll be able to find the MSNBC, CNN and Fox livestreams and how they covered the trial anymore unless they archived them, and it seems the section on media controversy was deleted on wikipedia
I'm sure you can still find the actual trials on youtube, admittedly they're not as fun without livestreams (in fact, they're just dry court trials without livestream bants) but it's got absolutely scummy shit by the prosecution and judge taking place, deleting evidence, coaching witnesses and involving witnesses who had previously signed petitions to prosecute the defendant e.t.c.
Then google how all the media covered it, this shit really was a product of the moment and I don't want to spend any more time on something I've talked about to the point of sickness xD

Whispers: You misattributed the first quote block to Bohondas. It came from me.
Sorry m8, I try to rush through these as quickly as possible

To clarify that one point:
When discussing how communism affected the daily lives of ordinary people in the former soviet union, it is better to ask and hear from the common, ordinary people who lived their daily lives under communism in the former soviet union. They can tell you difinitively, without some political slant, exactly how life there was.
No, they will tell you with political slant, they are products of communism from the former soviet union

If you were to hear onlh Stalin's PR, you will hear only roses and sunshine about it.
If you were to hear only McCarthy's views, you would only hear doom and gloom about brainwashing, and other stuff concerning the dreaded "red menace."
Adding more disinfo does not truth make

Both Stalin and McCarthy had lots of influence over the media of their respective hemispheres. They crowded out the actual signal (people saying how life there is/was) by saturating it with thier own version as they saw it.
I've seen tumblr signal boosting and have come to the conclusion their theories on how truth comes about is poo

Depending on who you asked about life in the soviet union, it could vary from marginally backward but not altogether bad, to downright hellhole. (I know all about the Holodomor. I lost family.)
My matrilinial blood runs with the blood that flowed through a commie official, he was supposed to have been executed but he escaped and they forgot about him after he changed his identity
My patrilinial has a doc who spied on the USSR who nearly got KGB'd and hurriedly made his way back home before actually getting KGB'd
Commie fightan is like stinging to scorpions

Similar happens when you talk to actual people that fall into disadvantaged demographics. What they say ranges from the "seriously, this is being blown out of proportion" side of things to the "OMG, this shit is fucked up and ruining my life!" side of things.
if you listen to the denialists, they will favor the "nothing to see here citizen, move along" angle, while the SJW focuses on the "OMG! it's ruining people's lives! we gotta act NAOW!!" angle.
The problem is that much like McCarthy and Stalin, the denialists and the SJWs have vastly more time and resources to spend promulgating their version of "Truth", which detracts and blots out the actually disadvantaged people's actual voices.
That's a difference in tactics, tactics which SJWs employ

Shadowlord

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #130 on: December 23, 2015, 07:15:04 pm »

*clicks link*

*scrolls looking for links leading to sources for any of the quotes or anything in your OP... Doesn't find them*

(No, I didn't read any of it, and I stopped before I hit the end of the post because it was taking ridiculously long just to scroll through it)

If you don't want to cite anything because it's too much effort that's fine. Maybe you're just making stuff up. Maybe you're getting it from Alex Jones? Who knows? I'm not going to waste time googling everything you say.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #131 on: December 23, 2015, 07:44:26 pm »

*clicks link*
*scrolls looking for links leading to sources for any of the quotes or anything in your OP... Doesn't find them*
(No, I didn't read any of it, and I stopped before I hit the end of the post because it was taking ridiculously long just to scroll through it)
If you don't want to cite anything because it's too much effort that's fine. Maybe you're just making stuff up. Maybe you're getting it from Alex Jones? Who knows? I'm not going to waste time googling everything you say.
Have pity - if you felt fatal dread by scrolling through it, consider the exhaustive task it was for the foolish souls who wrote it all
Watching the trial itself was an exhaustive task by virtue of timezone differences, living across the Atlantic means I was either up early or up late watching Americans do the most American things ever. It was spaced out regularly though so there was no netflixesque binging, which was nice.
All in all worth it.
Also as usual, it's hard to cite the media in regards to media doctoring evidence as only the trial was certified halal (and even then, evidence had been tampered with). It's a very long topic and if you don't want to waste your time on it and I don't want to waste my time on it, let's not waste time on it, I am actually Alex Jones
Anyways if you're interested you can find most of all the trial videos released to the public here, there are 73 of them in total
I must say I looked for the CNN, Fox and MSNBC streams to see if they had archived their Zimzam trial livestreams (which came with each station's commentary), if they did archive it they haven't made it public; if you do on the offchance find interest in it and find their archives send me a link

wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #132 on: December 24, 2015, 03:42:15 am »

Whispers:

I did not mean to imply that listening to the stalin PR or McCarthy doomspeak together would give a picture of reality. Far the contrary. I was trying (but clearly failing) to point out the dangerous and poisonous effects of those messages hogging the channel of discussion. 

The former residents of the USSR may have political slants, but selecting them at random, and correlating thier anectodal stories, one can arrive at a better semblence of factual truth than one could ever get by listening to stalin and McCarthy.  That is why I favor turning up the volume on this tiny part of the channel, and trying to bandpass filter out all the shit being thrown by the disinformation junkies.

That trend applies equally well to the disinformation being brandied about by the SJWs and the denialist factions.  I would rather see and evaluate the many anectdotal stories of women hitting glass ceilings, gay men being denied promotions for being gay, or minorities getting jilted on prices or in due process than I would like seeing the SJWs and Denialists go round and round like a pinwheel.

At least with the many anectdotal accounts, some semblence of what actually went down is possible to reconstruct. You cant get that with the cherry picked "facts" the two major actors shitting up the scene hurl about like so much ape feces.  Witness testimony is the weakest kind of evidence, and I appreciate that fact. However, when dealing with a social problem that can only really be investigated through exploring testimony, hearing as much actual testimony as is possible is the sensible approach to reaching a decision on the severity, and thus appropriate level of corrective action, of said problem.

I am not a fan of fixing every problem with a righteously wielded hammer, like SJWs seem to advocate. Nor am I a fan of simply pretending that such problems simply dont exist, like the denialist factions seem to advocate.

I want to collect as much useful information about such problems as is possible, so that I can analyze that information, and reach the most sensible conclusions I am capable of reaching. I am not a fan of having others think and decide for me. As such, I am strongly against big players hogging the channel and distorting information essential to reaching that end. It pisses me the fuck off. That's why I hate SJWs. They insist that they have done the thinking for you, and that you need to blindly accept their version of the problem's scope, and blindly accept thier proposed solution.

Nope nope nope.  I want to reach that destination myself SJWs. Sorry. Please stop using disadvantaged people like sock puppets.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #133 on: December 24, 2015, 07:18:43 pm »

Whispers:
I did not mean to imply that listening to the stalin PR or McCarthy doomspeak together would give a picture of reality. Far the contrary. I was trying (but clearly failing) to point out the dangerous and poisonous effects of those messages hogging the channel of discussion. 
The former residents of the USSR may have political slants, but selecting them at random, and correlating thier anectodal stories, one can arrive at a better semblence of factual truth than one could ever get by listening to stalin and McCarthy.  That is why I favor turning up the volume on this tiny part of the channel, and trying to bandpass filter out all the shit being thrown by the disinformation junkies.
If you selected random mainland Chinese and asked them on their opinion of the Hong Kong protesters, you would just be hearing the PRC's narrative.

That trend applies equally well to the disinformation being brandied about by the SJWs and the denialist factions.  I would rather see and evaluate the many anectdotal stories of women hitting glass ceilings, gay men being denied promotions for being gay, or minorities getting jilted on prices or in due process than I would like seeing the SJWs and Denialists go round and round like a pinwheel.
At least with the many anectdotal accounts, some semblence of what actually went down is possible to reconstruct. You cant get that with the cherry picked "facts" the two major actors shitting up the scene hurl about like so much ape feces.  Witness testimony is the weakest kind of evidence, and I appreciate that fact. However, when dealing with a social problem that can only really be investigated through exploring testimony, hearing as much actual testimony as is possible is the sensible approach to reaching a decision on the severity, and thus appropriate level of corrective action, of said problem.
So jump from what one faction's saying to what one faction's saying?

I am not a fan of fixing every problem with a righteously wielded hammer, like SJWs seem to advocate. Nor am I a fan of simply pretending that such problems simply dont exist, like the denialist factions seem to advocate.
I want to collect as much useful information about such problems as is possible, so that I can analyze that information, and reach the most sensible conclusions I am capable of reaching. I am not a fan of having others think and decide for me. As such, I am strongly against big players hogging the channel and distorting information essential to reaching that end. It pisses me the fuck off. That's why I hate SJWs. They insist that they have done the thinking for you, and that you need to blindly accept their version of the problem's scope, and blindly accept thier proposed solution.
I don't think anyone likes someone else thinking for you, heck one of the current charting pop songs is going on about how "don't tell me what to say." Frame the narrative though and through peer pressure you can get everyone on the same page, much more readily than if just commanded to by an ideologue

wierd

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Re: Does the Internet discourage intellectual discussion and debate?
« Reply #134 on: December 24, 2015, 07:33:15 pm »

not everyone...


besides, i didnt say that talking directly to the impacted demographic was perfect, i said it was better than the alternative. given how noisy the signal is on its own, it makes sense that i do not appreciate the added noise thrown on top, right?
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