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Author Topic: Dwarven Propaganda  (Read 8081 times)

Iamblichus

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Dwarven Propaganda
« on: December 08, 2015, 02:44:19 am »

It seems that in this new version there is the possibility to influence your dwarf's beliefs through reading.  From the devlog-

Dwarves read books in the library (they don't need to be scholars)
Values can be passed in writing and through adventure mode arguments

According to the wiki entry for philosophy http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Topic#Philosophy-

Writers can push value "agendas" if they are skilled enough.  Description format: The [worthlessness | value | nature] of [belief] The specific view that a philosopher takes on, say, the nature of beauty or methods of education will depend on their individual/cultural values, where they apply, and a philosopher that encounters a philosophy book on beauty can then provide their own take (having acquired the innovation).

Looking at the wiki entry for beliefs http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Personality_trait#Beliefs  there are a few that stand out as value agendas that would be good to promote like hard work, martial prowess and stoicism. 

It seems that the personal values of your philosophers and visiting philosophers could have a serious effect on your civilization.  You wouldn't want a philosopher who "finds the proposition that one should work hard in life utterly abhorrent" to write the book called The Worthlessness of Hard Work.  It might seriously effect productivity in your fort.

I'm going to try to do some Science on this in my new fort by  starting a number of my settlers with high Critical thinker skills.  Once I get my fort up and stable I may switch to adventurer mode and visit my fort to argue with my philosophers to see if I can introduce values that way.

A few questions I have-
Are all dwarfs capable of reading?
Is there a way to entice dwarfs to read in a library?
Is there a way to develop the Critical Thinking skill?
Is there a way to limit what books are in a library?




« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 02:46:08 am by Iamblichus »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2015, 03:55:00 am »

You can always purge your library of "unsuitable" literature by selling it off to caravans or dumping it into magma, but it'll probably be a purely manual censor task.
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FoiledFencer

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2015, 03:58:42 am »

You can always purge your library of "unsuitable" literature by selling it off to caravans or dumping it into magma, but it'll probably be a purely manual censor task.

Alternatively you could forbid the books in question I suppose. Or even have an entire department of forbidden books...
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Iamblichus

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 05:17:46 am »

So I've set up an embark profile  that has five of my dwarfs set to the following-

Adequate Wordsmith
Adequate Writer
Proficient Critical Thinker
Novice Teacher

Now it is just a matter of embarking again and again trying to get dwarf's with good beliefs.  I wish Dwarf Therapist was updated for this version, it would make this process easier.

The wiki says that being able to write a value agenda book is dependent on skill.  I am assuming that Critical Thinking,used by scholars when thinking about philosophy, is the skill that is dependent on.  But it could be based on writing ability as well.  Unfortunately, according to the wiki, the relationship between the wordsmith and writer skill is unknown.  My guess it that wordsmith is for writing new works and writer is for copying existing works but I went with two points in each to be safe. 

 
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Iamblichus

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 05:33:52 am »

You can always purge your library of "unsuitable" literature by selling it off to caravans or dumping it into magma, but it'll probably be a purely manual censor task.

Alternatively you could forbid the books in question I suppose. Or even have an entire department of forbidden books...

I feel like book burning would be the dwarfy thing to do.  Is there no problem that magma can't solve?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 06:00:39 am »

Would it not be easier to retire your fortress, create an expert writer adventurer customised to have all the traits you want to push, write a bunch of books and drop them off at your fortress library?
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Iamblichus

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2015, 08:20:17 am »

Would it not be easier to retire your fortress, create an expert writer adventurer customised to have all the traits you want to push, write a bunch of books and drop them off at your fortress library?

Yea, that is the way to go about this.  All the Dwarfs I embark with are cultural-marxist anarchists that just want to watch society burn. This was my favorite- Cerol Stukonoddom is disgusted by tradition and would flout any she encounters if given a chance, doesn't respect a society that has settled into harmony without debate and strife and has a negative view of those who exercise power over others.  Cerol should be teaching Critical Theory at Evergreen College. 

I managed to get one stoic philosopher.  I'm going to start with that to see what is possible in Dwarf Mode.  But designing my own prophet in adventure mode and having him share his revealed wisdom with my fort definitely seems like the best way to do this.

Any thoughts on what beliefs would be most beneficial?  At the moment I am looking at these four-

is appalled by merrymaking, parties and other such worthless activities
believes that hard work is one of the highest ideals and a key to the good life
sees romance as one of the highest ideals
sees family as one of the most important things in life

The romance and family ones could be beneficial to folks trying to revive a dead civilization if it increased birthrates in a fort.   I'll have to figure out how to test for that; there are a number of other variables. 
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gunpowdertea

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2015, 08:45:23 am »

Ugh. Now we get to social *shudder* science in the game... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB97Qe2D4V0
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schlake

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2015, 03:38:36 pm »


I feel like book burning would be the dwarfy thing to do.  Is there no problem that magma can't solve?

What's that old saying?  "Unless you are swimming, you can never have too much magma."  I think that's it.
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Iamblichus

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2015, 04:04:48 pm »

Ugh. Now we get to social *shudder* science in the game... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB97Qe2D4V0

Lol, yea as if we don't get bombarded enough with this stuff in day to day life.  That song was horrible by the way.  Didn't stop me from watching it all the way through and LMFAO though.  But seriously this update is amazing.  I can't think of another game that has this complex of a social simulator and we haven't even got to the legal system yet, nor is religion fully fleshed out.  I don't know maybe the game Diplomacy or Paradox Interactive's Victoria series might have a more complex social sciences simulation?  I haven't played either of them so I can't say for sure.  But I am certain that Dwarf Fortress is truly a work of art.
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Insert_Gnome_Here

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2015, 04:19:13 pm »

Once you have enough books with officially approved content, you could lock migrant writers in a room with them until they have been suitably... reeducated.
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Quote from: Max™ on December 06, 2015, 04:09:21 am
Also, if you ever figure out why poets/bards/dancers just randomly start butchering people/getting butchered, please don't fix it, I love never knowing when a dance party will turn into a slaughter.

thriggle

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2015, 04:29:51 pm »

A few questions I have-
Are all dwarfs capable of reading?

...

Is there a way to limit what books are in a library?

It seems like all dwarves can read. Maybe the reading skill affects the time it takes, or the likelihood of the author's message getting through.

To get books out of a library, just find them in a bookshelf with [t] and mark them to be dumped.
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miauw62

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2015, 04:53:41 pm »

You might want to reduce how much dorfs care for each other for less stress from death.
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they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the raving confessions of a mass murdering cannibal from a recipe to bake a pie.
Knowing Belgium, everyone will vote for themselves out of mistrust for anyone else, and some kind of weird direct democracy coalition will need to be formed from 11 million or so individuals.

Codyo

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 05:53:27 pm »

Dwarves may only read if their personality desires it. They probably wouldn't want to read for fun if otherwise. It's an interesting thought that reading books may inspire dwarves to change their beliefs. In this case raising their belief of Hard Work being a good thing.

I would recommend finding a dwarf that likes to read books, bookmark him, and record his belief strengths. Then later on see if they change after a lot of reading.
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Insert_Gnome_Here

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Re: Dwarven Propaganda
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2015, 05:59:45 pm »

Does this have an effect in worlgen? if so, you could become a goblin pacifist or antinatalist and destroy them from the inside.
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Quote from: Max™ on December 06, 2015, 04:09:21 am
Also, if you ever figure out why poets/bards/dancers just randomly start butchering people/getting butchered, please don't fix it, I love never knowing when a dance party will turn into a slaughter.
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