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[Neonivek]

Yeah but I am going to go on a wild limb here... and... None of the people offended are actually Australian.

I actually find it hilarious. I wouldn't mind if Facist Canada was the Empire of Beavers or the Cadre of Caribou.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Hmmm, after pretty successfully and handily achieving VE day in late 1943 as Holland (contributing a full 12% of the war effort) any interesting challenge ideas?

[Neonivek]

I feel uncomfortable but I have no real reason why I should take this down... but take it with a grain of salt.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Had a weird conversation in the steam forums where I defended someone saying they were disappointed that there was no Holocaust in this game.

Which I compared it to a American Civil War game that had no slaves. O-o

Though, I think this game isn't really going for being even remotely historical anyhow... but rather strategic.

---

Interestingly what trumps everything else... Is that they actually can't depict the holocaust in the game as it is illegal in certain countries. They already had to heavily censor Germany in alternate releases.

Though what ultimately makes me kind of offput by it all... Is I am honestly not sure if a more accurate depiction of WW2 would make this a better or worse game (well for me). Since this is a very clean revisionist version. You don't even attack civilians.

I mean I am intrigued by the idea... but I wonder if my intrigue is overriding my common sense.

I am going to go with worse game. I probably would stop playing this if I had to bomb civilian populations and create interment camps as the USA. It would be something I'd appreciate once.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I think that adding in the Holocaust isn't really necessarily, as I can't imagine it wouldn't really have any serious in-game effects. Maybe a newspaper article popup that you've discovered the camps when/if the allies enter Germany. Nuremburg trials decisions could be interesting too. However, I think that strategic bombing should lower national unity as well as reduce population, if it's too brutal it should lower your national unity too or haver other adverse effects.

[Glloyd]

Yeah, there's definitely room to flesh out strategic bombing and nukes. Nukes definitely do not do enough IMO.

[Orange Wizard]

Excluding the Holocaust is a design decision of Pdox's part, in keeping with their theme of not including anything that'd be censored in Germany.

I think it's fair enough. The whole racism/genocide/internment thing isn't terribly relevant to HOI's gameplay. If the game were focussed on internal politics and the like, then I'd question the decision to leave it out, but here it's pretty reasonable.

Yeah, there's definitely room to flesh out strategic bombing and nukes. Nukes definitely do not do enough IMO.

Hopefully it'll get patched in at some point in the near future.

[SOLDIER First]

Ptw

[Persus13]

-snip-

With something as delicate as the Holocaust, I can understand why they didn't put it in. At the same time its understandable people are disappointed that a game of this scope doesn't cover it.

I think that adding in the Holocaust isn't really necessarily, as I can't imagine it wouldn't really have any serious in-game effects. Maybe a newspaper article popup that you've discovered the camps when/if the allies enter Germany. Nuremburg trials decisions could be interesting too. However, I think that strategic bombing should lower national unity as well as reduce population, if it's too brutal it should lower your national unity too or haver other adverse effects.

Well, the Holocaust did prevent German camp guards from being elsewhere, and shipping people in railroad cars to camps puts pressure on railroad lines, so it could be a negative modifier for the Germans.

[Neonivek]

Well, the Holocaust did prevent German camp guards from being elsewhere, and shipping people in railroad cars to camps puts pressure on railroad lines, so it could be a negative modifier for the Germans.

According to someone on the forums... Russia (or USSR >_> I forget) hilariously STILL has the ability to commit genocides/Mass slaughter... For a bonus.

Not that I am saying "Well if that is in the game, then why no holocaust". I am only saying "WOW! that is kind of hilarious. I am not sure if that is in bad taste or is genius"

Yet I seriously question if that is true.

[mainiac]

I actually find it hilarious. I wouldn't mind if Facist Canada was the Empire of Beavers or the Cadre of Caribou.

No, it should be named Quebec.

According to someone on the forums... Russia (or USSR >_> I forget) hilariously STILL has the ability to commit genocides/Mass slaughter... For a bonus.

The USSR has the great purge.  Russia did not exist in 1936-1948.  And honestly the mechanics about the great purge are very odd (Podcat posted some roundabout explanation I didn't find very satisfying.)  But the great purge, while hardly a shining moment in the history of political discourse, are not even remotely approaching the holocaust.

In addition to the fact that people tend to turn into turds on crackers when discussing things like the holocaust, it makes ZERO sense to model it in the game as it currently exists.  Food doesn't exist in the game and you can't model the warcrimes of WWII without talking about food.  To put food into the game you would need to overhaul the entire economic system.  And frankly I like the economic system.  It fucking works.  It's got a few questionable bits of non-reality but it fucking works.  That shouldn't be scrapped in favor jamming crimes against humanity into a fucking game.

[Neonivek]

are not even remotely approaching the holocaust.

>_>

Actually from my research the purges are responsible for the deaths of well over 10 million people if you add in all the purges. About a million off from the conservative estimate of the holocaust (though if we include only the Jews that actually surpasses it by 5 million)

Perhaps the Great Purge itself didn't cause that much on its own... but still.

[mainiac]

The Great Purge did not kill 10 million people.  Perhaps you are mixing it up with the famines.

[evilcherry]

Last game as France:

- 1936: Nothing, really just build up enough factories (We only had 6 land factories at the beginning) . Rushing to turn France red to intervene in the Spanish civil war. By August, Communists took over in a bloodless revolution (I was hoping for a democracy in which the socialists took power, but apparently HOI4 have no place for social democrats).
- 1937: CDG led 2 infanterie and 2 char Corps across the pyrenees in a mind-boggling-slow 14 days. Being the only armor present in Spain, the tanks handily defeated Falangists. Internally, we are now on full red mode so we are gaining 1 PP per day.
- 1938: Decided not to sign the Munich Agreement - so that we leave the allies. We guaranteed the Czechs but they hated a red protector. CDG rode to rescue but is of no use.
- 1939: We once again decided to intervene in Poland. There was no Phoney war - UK is in full mobilization. CDG sent 7 Corps but they were holed up in Danzig and retreated once Warsaw fell. This bought a few precious months for the UK to organize an actual defense of the Netherlands. On the other hand, Cairo fell easily. Molotov-Ribbentrop signed. Soviets Guaranteed us - crucial. Fascist Romania blobbed.
- 1940: Hell finally broke loose. The Italian and Belgium walls were built - both probably unnecessary in the hindsight. We had also built up to some 120 Corps, mostly infanty (a costly mistake later on) on the German/Belgian front, and 65 mostly mountain infantries on Italy. I didn't even touch the overseas territories. Land Factory count: around 80 before war. Mainly for small arms and towed antitank each division. I should opt for a combined arms approach and build more chars. Germany don't stand a chance at the war: the Russians were literally flooding from the east, while we made good progress on the Italian alps. Charging through the Maginot is considered risky so only 10 char corps were sent to the Netherlands as a relief force. This didn't stop the Dutch from capitulating, but Under the command of CDG they are brutally effective in asserting french control of the Netherlands. UK offered us to join the allies again and we accepted as the only communist country among them. Spain joined the Comintern and called into war by USSR, mainly operating on the African and Italian fronts. Japan was expelled from China (this happened very frequently in HoI4). Naval and air supremacy in Western Europe asserted. Turkey joined Axis.
- 1941: Germany finally dowed Belgium, joining the Dutch and French fronts, and my Belgian line units are now actively participating in the war. The Benelux fronts were exceptionally brutal, with France soon on the top of the casulty list, out of manpower, and mainly comprised of foot infantry. War in Italy proceeded at snail pace as mountain troops are no match against mechanized forces in the Po valley. Genoa held out for another year. Spain handily beat Italy in Africa. US joined the allies.
- 1942: Germany capitulated as the red army marched through Berlin with ease. A lack of tacitcal mobility and manpower means the French were just barely across the Rhine when soviet and french forces met. Italy capitulated as French mountaineers Marched into Rome. Iran joined the Axis.
- 1943: Brits and Yankees carried out Operation Downfall, followed up by 50 French corps. Iran fell next. The resulting negotiation clearly favoured the USSR: Japan was a Communist puppet and retains Manchuria, Takasago and Korea. Most of Eastern Europe and half of Turkey gobbled up or puppeted by USSR. Germany was divided into three parts while France got Mossburg. The Chinese civil war broke out and France dumped a glut of obsolete equipment and 17 corps to Chiang. Without Manchuria or foreign support, Mao didn't stand a chance.
- 1944: Saved the game and quit as it looks like a cold war situation.

[Neonivek]

The Great Purge did not kill 10 million people.  Perhaps you are mixing it up with the famines.

I am not. I am adding all the Purges together. The Great Purge itself was only ~2million. Yet together Stalin managed to kill about 10 Million.

It kind of REALLY makes me wonder why people remember the Great Purge individually... but then I remember that the rest of the purges weren't all that known for quite some time.

*does more research*

OHHHH GAWD!!! Wow Stalin was a monster! O-o how the world is he not more famous?

[evilcherry]

-snip-

With something as delicate as the Holocaust, I can understand why they didn't put it in. At the same time its understandable people are disappointed that a game of this scope doesn't cover it.

I think that adding in the Holocaust isn't really necessarily, as I can't imagine it wouldn't really have any serious in-game effects. Maybe a newspaper article popup that you've discovered the camps when/if the allies enter Germany. Nuremburg trials decisions could be interesting too. However, I think that strategic bombing should lower national unity as well as reduce population, if it's too brutal it should lower your national unity too or haver other adverse effects.

Well, the Holocaust did prevent German camp guards from being elsewhere, and shipping people in railroad cars to camps puts pressure on railroad lines, so it could be a negative modifier for the Germans.

The Holocaust in game terms should be something like national unity and production at the expense of infrastructure and relations.