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Author Topic: Hearts of Iron IV  (Read 104799 times)

Orange Wizard

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #330 on: June 16, 2016, 04:34:02 am »

Apparently having ships to protect your convoys is very important. I set 32 divisions to prepare for a naval invasion of England, and then went off to micromanage the war in Africa. When I came back, all 32 divisions had embarked and were promptly annihilated by the British navy. RIP.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #331 on: June 16, 2016, 06:05:57 am »

The only time you really need medium or heavy tanks is to fight other medium or heavy tanks. Light tanks do very well against soft targets like infantry so if the bulk of your opposition is soft targets then heavy tanks won't help anyway. Tanks have amazing breakthrough stats so they're excellent on attack and shit on defense. I usually use an army of 8-12 tank divisions to take greound and infantry divisions to hold it afterwards.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #332 on: June 16, 2016, 05:52:32 pm »

The only time you really need medium or heavy tanks is to fight other medium or heavy tanks. Light tanks do very well against soft targets like infantry so if the bulk of your opposition is soft targets then heavy tanks won't help anyway. Tanks have amazing breakthrough stats so they're excellent on attack and shit on defense. I usually use an army of 8-12 tank divisions to take greound and infantry divisions to hold it afterwards.

Are tanks actually useful at all? Like... Infantry has the best stats, by far. I mean... building a large army of mechanized or motorized infantry with armor support is almost hamstringing yourself in this game. I think tanks need a major buff.

Also... I can't stop playing the Dutch, they're so fun! Democratic Dutch, Fascist Dutch, and soon... Communist Dutch. They're great!
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Glloyd

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #333 on: June 16, 2016, 05:56:22 pm »

The only time you really need medium or heavy tanks is to fight other medium or heavy tanks. Light tanks do very well against soft targets like infantry so if the bulk of your opposition is soft targets then heavy tanks won't help anyway. Tanks have amazing breakthrough stats so they're excellent on attack and shit on defense. I usually use an army of 8-12 tank divisions to take greound and infantry divisions to hold it afterwards.

Are tanks actually useful at all? Like... Infantry has the best stats, by far. I mean... building a large army of mechanized or motorized infantry with armor support is almost hamstringing yourself in this game. I think tanks need a major buff.

Tanks are only good for breakthrough, and motorized infantry are only good for their speed, which you can use to seize empty land and encircle easily.

forsaken1111

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #334 on: June 16, 2016, 06:08:32 pm »

Tanks are FANTASTIC for breaking through a line of forts or entrenched infantry. I always use mixed light/medium tanks to breach lines of infantry that have had time to dig in, and then pour soldiers through the gap to surround and encircle the rest of the enemy line
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #335 on: June 16, 2016, 06:36:12 pm »

Tanks are FANTASTIC for breaking through a line of forts or entrenched infantry. I always use mixed light/medium tanks to breach lines of infantry that have had time to dig in, and then pour soldiers through the gap to surround and encircle the rest of the enemy line

Well I'm in still in the early-war phase of my latest Fascist Netherlands, but I've managed to surround and destroy almost 40 British divisions* with just infantry and artillery. I guess my question is, are tanks really worth it? Like... can they drive from Berlin to Paris without stopping (or Berlin to Warsaw to Moscow), because then I could see how useful they'd be.

*Backstory: Joined the axis, Germany went full Danzig or War, invaded Poland, then declared war on Luxembourg, enter Scoopz, take Paris (with infantry and artillery), then see that British invaded Italy to keep the pressure off the French, I cut off their main forces just North of Genoa and they surrendered as soon as they ran out of supplies.

EDIT: How do tanks fit in to your overall strategy? Use them for breakthroughs and then leave them behind the lines? Or keep pushing them forward at rapid speeds?
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mainiac

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #336 on: June 16, 2016, 06:39:31 pm »

I concentrate tanks on a narrow part of the frontline then make pincer attacks, rinse and repeat.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #337 on: June 16, 2016, 06:46:16 pm »

Breakthrough is where tanks really shine, but they don't shine much. Tanks need some serious buffs IMO, because right now infantry+support artillery is the winning combination even as a small, low-population country.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #338 on: June 16, 2016, 06:57:06 pm »

The thing is, infantry can't do much against tanks due to the armor value. Infantry have very low penetration so most tank v infantry battles will be pretty one-sided unless the infantry have some anti-tank attachments
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Jopax

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #339 on: June 16, 2016, 07:01:53 pm »

Unless you're versing medium tanks or up (or the late models of light tanks), AT is a bit of an overkill, much better to get AA attachments which have enough pen to deal with the light tanks while also having the added benefit of swatting planes out of the sky.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #340 on: June 16, 2016, 07:06:20 pm »

I dunno, support guns don't really have much of a downside beyond extra production cost. Chucking an anti-tank group in there (as well as AA and soft artillery) will end battles a lot faster.
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Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

Jopax

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #341 on: June 16, 2016, 07:08:28 pm »

It will, but sometimes you either don't have the resources to get both, or the time to research both, so picking the more versatile option as a stopgap measure is I think the better choice in that situation.

Edit: Also IIRC, AA doesn't eat up tungsten which makes it much easier to build for most small countries.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #342 on: June 16, 2016, 07:09:31 pm »

The thing is, infantry can't do much against tanks due to the armor value. Infantry have very low penetration so most tank v infantry battles will be pretty one-sided unless the infantry have some anti-tank attachments

Hmmm, I've never had a problem attacking or defending against tanks with naught but the integrated support AT. I find that tanks get wasted really easily. When I was playing my Argentina game I had a few experimental tank divisions that got absolutely destroyed (lost nearly 100% of their tanks) against Paraguayan infantry (1939/1940ish)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 07:11:45 pm by Urist McScoopbeard »
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #343 on: June 16, 2016, 07:11:20 pm »

The only time you really need medium or heavy tanks is to fight other medium or heavy tanks. Light tanks do very well against soft targets like infantry so if the bulk of your opposition is soft targets then heavy tanks won't help anyway. Tanks have amazing breakthrough stats so they're excellent on attack and shit on defense. I usually use an army of 8-12 tank divisions to take greound and infantry divisions to hold it afterwards.

Are tanks actually useful at all? Like... Infantry has the best stats, by far. I mean... building a large army of mechanized or motorized infantry with armor support is almost hamstringing yourself in this game. I think tanks need a major buff.

Also... I can't stop playing the Dutch, they're so fun! Democratic Dutch, Fascist Dutch, and soon... Communist Dutch. They're great!
WW2 strategy lesson (not yet tested in the game because I'm doing the 1936 start), but its difficult to decisively destroy enemy units unless you surround them.  This is the best way to achieve fast results in terms of breaking enemy resistance.  Surrounded units will not only be vulnerable to attack from multiple directions, but they'll run out of supply (abstracted in HoI to originate from the capital, or at least it was in 3).  The threat of encirclement, even without the execution, allows you to force an entrenched line of enemies into retreat.  Once you've broken their line at two points, you threaten to form a circle around a stationary defensive line, basically dooming them unless they can break open the circle and push out.  So even with fortifications and entrenchment you can force them to retreat.

The purpose of tanks is to apply a lot of pressure on one point and break through, to facilitate encirclement.  However you put yourself in a tight place once you do this, as that thin line extending into enemy territory can be "pinched" at the breakthrough point (turning the tables and encircling you).  You need fast units to take advantage of a breach in enemy lines before they form new lines, but tanks are generally too expensive to be wasted occupying a bunch of loosely or not defended enemy provinces.  That's where motorized infantry or other "exploitation" units come in.  They don't fight much better than infantry, but they can rush through a hole in the enemy line and carry out an encirclement or claim territory before the enemy's leg infantry can respond effectively.

Most of you that ninja'ed me knew all that, but I'm sure plenty reading this thread didn't so I'll leave it.

The other thing that tanks are useful for is increasing a division's "hardness" rating.  I don't know exact formulas but a basic way to think about it is representing the proportion of soft attacks vs hard attacks an enemy will be making.  Towed AT adds hard attacks but it does NOT add any significant amount of hardness.  You need tanks (or tank destroyers) because they're the only way to increase hardness rating.  An entirely soft army is arty fodder.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Hearts of Iron IV
« Reply #344 on: June 16, 2016, 07:18:35 pm »

I've never seen any AI player move fast enough to really actively try and avoid encirclement. I.E. In my latest game, I reached basically to the start of Brittany while French forces were still holding the maginot line. There wasn't enough time to fully encircle them before France surrendered.

EDIT: As another benchmark, I just want to let everyone know I'm on Normal difficulty.
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