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Healthy

Common Cold

Stomach aches

Mild influenza

Food poisoning

Influenza

Dysentery

Influenza whilst immune compromised

Ebola

Spanish flu

[scrdest]

Also remember that there are plenty of antimicrobials that aren't pharmaceutical antibiotics. For example, alcohol, heat, UV light, silver, electrical current and oxygen are all still extremely effective at killing bacteria.

I feel the need to invoke Munroe's Principle.

So does a handgun.

Of those, only alcohol (well, and the handgun, arguably) can be readily applied to the *inside* of the body and is not already present there, and even that is not exactly the right way to do that. What they won't do is cure tuberculosis you've contracted. Unlike, say, something that rhymes with 'antibiotics' (things have a way of rhyming with themselves).

A. All the health practices in the world won't help you against a catastrophic staph infection.

You are factually incorrect. A person who is clean and healthy will be more resistant to and better able to fight infection than a person who is not.

No. YOU are factually incorrect. Aside from the tautology that a person who is healthy is healthy, staying clean is, ironically, strongly correlated with not being healthy. Because autoimmune diseases are a thing; overzealousness is a thing that exists even in the world of immunology.

But I digress; the thing about dangerous diseases is that they CANNOT be defeated easily by normal means. Intracellular parasites, pathogens attacking immune cells, pathogens that lay low or, indeed, pathogens which kill you by freaking out your immune system into defending you so hard you die. We're not talking about a cold. The major issue with not having antibiotics is that there are pathogens we absolutely NEED to have antibiotics to kill.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You are factually incorrect. A person who is clean and healthy will be more resistant to and better able to fight infection than a person who is not.

Talk about missing the point. Sure, good health practices are good for resisting infection. This does not change the reality that once you've been infected with MRSA, or TB, or any of the other major bacterial illnesses. Persistent infection without antibiotic treatment is a dance with death.

You are factually incorrect. There are other antimicrobials that are effective at killing bacteria "while you're infected by them" besides antibiotics. Antibiotics are not at all unique.

Ok buddy, you eat those silver shavings and shock yourself into fighting an infection, good luck.

You are factually incorrect. Source: the Center for Disease Control

"Microbicidal Activity. Hydrogen peroxide is active against a wide range of microorganisms, including bacteria, yeasts, fungi, viruses, and spores "

"Commercially available" H2O2, as in, what you can buy in brown bottles for $2 at the grocery store, simply has industrial pollutants in it that make it unsafe to take internally. That is not a concern for external application. And for internal application, food grade hydrogen peroxide is extremely available and only slightly more expensive.

And of course, if we're talking about use by doctors, "commercial availability" is irrelevant anyway.

Maybe check your own source next time. As stated in the URL, this is about the use of hydrogen peroxide as a sterlizing agent. Sure, if you consume that it'll kill the bacteria in your veins, and also kill you. Let's take some quotes.

Mode of Action. Hydrogen peroxide works by producing destructive hydroxyl free radicals that can attack membrane lipids, DNA, and other essential cell components. Catalase, produced by aerobic organisms and facultative anaerobes that possess cytochrome systems, can protect cells from metabolically produced hydrogen peroxide by degrading hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen. This defense is overwhelmed by the concentrations used for disinfection

As you can see, hydrogen peroxide at sterilizing levels destroys DNA and cell components. Good at rubbing down equipment, but it's not medicine.

Uses. Commercially available 3% hydrogen peroxide is a stable and effective disinfectant when used on inanimate surfaces. It has been used in concentrations from 3% to 6% for disinfecting soft contact lenses (e.g., 3% for 2–3 hrs) 653, 671, 672, tonometer biprisms 513, ventilators 673, fabrics 397, and endoscopes 456. Hydrogen peroxide was effective in spot-disinfecting fabrics in patients' rooms 397.

And, of course, that's exactly what they use it for.

[Starver]

(Ninjaed, but posting anyway.)

C. Hydrogen peroxide in commercially available concentrations does not do anything good for your wounds, it just hurts and looks dramatic so people believe in it.

You are factually incorrect. Source: the Center for Disease Control

"Microbicidal Activity. Hydrogen peroxide is active against a wide range of microorganisms, including bacteria, yeasts, fungi, viruses, and spores "

"Commercially available" H2O2, as in, what you can buy in brown bottles for $2 at the grocery store, simply has industrial pollutants in it that make it unsafe to take internally. That is not a concern for external application. And for internal application, food grade hydrogen peroxide is extremely available and only slightly more expensive.

My every instinct goes against administering H₂O₂ internally.  I'm already uncomfortable with its use externally, beyond the dilute versions people use to bleach hair...  Bleach hair!

From that link:

Mode of Action.Hydrogen peroxide works by producing destructive hydroxyl free radicals that can attack membrane lipids, DNA, and other essential cell components. Catalase, produced by aerobic organisms and facultative anaerobes that possess cytochrome systems, can protect cells from metabolically produced hydrogen peroxide by degrading hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen. This defense is overwhelmed by the concentrations used for disinfection.

"...This defense..." [urgh, US English makes my spill-chucker complain mightily] "... is overwhelmed by the concentrations used for disinfection."

Uses. Commercially available 3% hydrogen peroxide is a stable and effective disinfectant when used on inanimate surfaces. It has been used in concentrations from 3% to 6% for disinfecting soft contact lenses (e.g., 3% for 2–3 hrs) 653, 671, 672, tonometer biprisms 513, ventilators 673, fabrics 397, and endoscopes 456.

...and it goes on with the idea that you're disinfecting inanimate surfaces.

I may have something wrong, but I would very severely insist that no-one tries to take Hydrogen Peroxide internally!  Ignore the "industrial pollutants", I wouldn't ingest it.  It's dangerous on its own!  It's dangerous diluted!  It's dangerous in very small quantities: "Corneal damage from a hydrogen peroxide-soaked tonometer tip that was not properly rinsed has been reported."

I certainly wouldn't want to try "HCl + H₂O₂ + Organic slush -> ???" in the stomach, but the damage would already happen to the mouth and oesophagus, I reckon, for any  'useful' concentration.

And as for its use in quack medicine...  Nope.  As noted elsewhere in there, small amounts exist in the body (where superoxide radicals have been themselves down-converted in the presence of water), but it's not something I'd add to an ill person.

And of course, if we're talking about use by doctors, "commercial availability" is irrelevant anyway.

(Don't understand this.  Aren't doctors limited to what they can commercially buy, one way or another?  And of course what the FDA/NIHCE/whatever has approved for medical use in their particular region, assuming it's not a dangerous free-for-all where you are.)

[LordBucket]

Of those, only alcohol (well, and the handgun, arguably) can be readily applied to the *inside* of the body

https://www.holtorfmed.com/download/i-v-therapy/Review__IV_Very_Dilute_Hydrogen_Peroxide.pdf

" “We have demonstrated H2O2, when administered intravenously, has a pronounced effect to stimulate metabolic respiration…Intravenous and intra-arterial infusions of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), reported since H2O2 kills bacteria, parasites, yeast, protozoa, inhibits virus and oxidizes immuunocomplexes"

http://www.medical-library.net/hydrogen_peroxide_therapy.html

"Intravenous hydrogeyn peroxide"

"It kills, or severely inhibits the growth of, anaerobic organisms (bacteria and viruses that use carbon dioxide for fuel and leave oxygen as a by-product"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312702/

"Ozone therapy has been utilized and heavily studied for more than a century. Its effects are proven, consistent, safe and with minimal and preventable side effects. Medical O3 is used to disinfect and treat disease. Mechanism of actions is by inactivation of bacteria, viruses, fungi, yeast and protozoa, stimulation of oxygen metabolism, activation of the immune system."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper

"Copper and its alloys (brasses, bronzes, cupronickel, copper-nickel-zinc, and others) are natural antimicrobial materials."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766878

"The antimicrobial action of silver or silver compounds is proportional to the bioactive silver ion (Ag(+)) released and its availability to interact with bacterial or fungal cell membranes. Silver metal and inorganic silver compounds ionize in the presence of water, body fluids or tissue exudates. The silver ion is biologically active and readily interacts with proteins, amino acid residues, free anions and receptors on mammalian and eukaryotic cell membranes. Bacterial (and probably fungal) sensitivity to silver is genetically determined and relates to the levels of intracellular silver uptake and its ability to interact and irreversibly denature key enzyme systems. Silver exhibits low toxicity in the human body, and minimal risk is expected due to clinical exposure by inhalation, ingestion, dermal application or through the urological or haematogenous route."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8893526

"The essential oils of aegle, ageratum, citronella, eucalyptus, geranium, lemongrass, orange, palmarosa, patchouli and peppermint, were tested for antibacterial activity against 22 bacteria, including Gram-positive cocci and rods and Gram-negative rods, and twelve fungi (3 yeast-like and 9 filamentous) by the disc diffusion method. Lemongrass, eucalyptus, peppermint and orange oils were effective against all the 22 bacterial strains. Aegle and palmarosa oils inhibited 21 bacteria; patchouli and ageratum oils inhibited 20 bacteria and citronella and geranium oils were inhibitory to 15 and 12 bacterial strains, respectively."


Also, remember that dialysis is a thing. Even if you don't want to administer an antimicrobial internally, you can still pump the blood out of the body, clean it, and put it back.

The major issue with not having antibiotics is that there are pathogens we absolutely NEED to have antibiotics to kill.

No. Stop drinking the pharmacological industry koolaid.

[Shazbot]

Gargle brown-bottle hydrogen peroxide when you have a sore or strep throat. I swear by it. Tastes kind of like chlorine and turns your spit into this godawful foam, but it doesn't cause horrendous internal chemical burns or even affect your sense of taste.

[Starver]

No. Stopping drink the pharmacological industry koolaid.

Don't just take their word for it, no, but don't imbibe the lysergic acid diethylamide of the anti-pharma kooks either...

[LordBucket]

Maybe check your own source next time. As stated in the URL, this is about the use of hydrogen peroxide as a sterlizing agent. Sure, if you consume that it'll kill the bacteria in your veins, and also kill you.

In sufficient doses, yes it will kill you. Properly diluted, it doesn't. Studies linked in previous post.

Lots of things are widely acknowledged to have antimicrobial properties. Silver, copper, oxygen, peppermint oil, etc. These are simply not widely accepted in the US, because there's too much money in drugs.

(Don't understand this.  Aren't doctors limited to what they can commercially buy, one way or another?  And of course what the FDA/NIHCE/whatever has approved for medical use in their particular region, assuming it's not a dangerous free-for-all where you are.)

Doctors and pharmacists routinely have access to substances that you can't buy over the counter. This is why prescriptions exist.

[Starver]

because there's too much money in drugs.

Define 'too much'?
It's known that pharma companies are not beyond profiteering, which isn't good, but at least they're profiteering with stuff that works, as opposed to the likes of Jim Humble and his MMS enema 'cure' for... well, apparently everything...

[Frumple]

Gargle brown-bottle hydrogen peroxide when you have a sore or strep throat. I swear by it. Tastes kind of like chlorine and turns your spit into this godawful foam, but it doesn't cause horrendous internal chemical burns or even affect your sense of taste.

I had a similar use recommended to me for dealing with ear infections.

You should have seen the look on the doctor's face when I actually asked one about it. Turns out it can cause permanent inner ear damage, ahaha!

... seriously, just. Don't use peroxide on flesh. It disinfects, yes, but the stuff also messes with biological matter fairly effectively. Junk damages flesh, slows down the healing process. Disinfectant of next to last recourse (just before fire :V) for basic first aid, really. Hospitals and sane doctors use other stuff these days for a reason, not just profiteering.

[LordBucket]

It's known that pharma companies are not beyond profiteering, which isn't good, but at least they're profiteering with stuff that works

Why do you believe that these things I've linked, for example, National Institute of Health dot gov sources for, don't work? Just to pick one example, it's commonly accepted that silver, has antimicrobial properties.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766878 <-- nih.gov "National Institude of Health dot gov"

"Silver has a long and intriguing history as an antibiotic in human health care. It has been developed for use in water purification, wound care, bone prostheses, reconstructive orthopaedic surgery, cardiac devices, catheters and surgical appliances"

"...antimicrobial action of silver"

"Silver exhibits low toxicity in the human body, and minimal risk is expected due to clinical exposure by inhalation, ingestion, dermal application or through the urological or haematogenous route."

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/silver.pdf <-- who.int "International World Health Organization"

"Soluble silver compounds may be used as external antiseptic agents (15–50 µg/litre), as bacteriostatic agents (up to 100 µg/litre), and as disinfectants"


And yet when somebody sells cheap colloidal silver, "oh! it's a ridiculous quack cure that doesn't work!" Why? Other than the fact that big name pharmaceutical companies aren't making money off of it?

The real crazy is when you see stuff like this, where expensive pharmaceuticals don't work very well, so they test expensive pharmaceutical plus silver, and conclude that oh wow, that seems to work. But clearly silver alone is a ridiculous quack cure and you need to buy it with our patented expensive drug that only we hold the rights to.

[Helgoland]

PTW

[Shazbot]

I don't buy any new-age natural medicine nonsense, but I know seven things;

Peroxide kills strep throat.
Jewelweed cures poison ivy.
Hot rum toddies cure sinus infections.
A sharp knife is the only wart removal.
Boric acid is perfectly safe around pets.
Urinary tract infections are cured by cranberry juice.
Eat two cigarettes to kill a tapeworm. A tablespoon of kerosene also works.

You say your doctor looked at you funny, yet its the treatment my audiologist prescribed for my daughter.

Its funny someone mentioned doctors in India. A co-worker of mine told me you can walk in and see a doctor for about $2.50, that they operate out of a corner clinic that might consist of them and a family member playing nurse, and that they treat anything from a fever to a simple fracture. If you don't like that doctor, you can cross the street. What a concept. I can't get my prescription written in an urgent care because its for a chronic disease, by a family doctor because its a neurological condition, by a neurologist because I've not been referred, or by an emergency room because they'd charge me a few grand and write me a script for barely a week at a time.

I naturally asked her how much a round trip to India is, and have since gone off my meds. My symptoms are no worse, I've $130 more in my pocket every month, and my mood is markedly better. Now, last infection I got I took my full course of antibotics, drank my rum and piled on the blankets while gulping down eight Advil every four hours.

[Antioch]

It is a huge disgrace that preventive anti-biotic use for farm animals was ever allowed.

[Shazbot]

Is it? Food quality worldwide has been improved by high-intensity livestock techniques. Making meat affordable for the other 90% of humanity has greatly improved their standard of living and health. Furthermore I've read that the antibiotics used in livestock and those used in humans rarely overlap. I think we just have to accept that a connected world with medical care available to the teeming billions will come with its costs. We will pay them, in research for new drugs and in human lives when medicine fails, because it is less expensive than the alternative.

All hail chlorine, the element of modern civilization.

[Shazbot]

Versus the entire farm being impossible to begin with. And I believe the 'shotgun' approach is as follows; I have more good bacteria in my body than bad bacteria, and the bad bacteria are overwhelming my natural defenses while the good bacteria are basically adjusted to them. If I kill half of both, my natural defenses will defeat the bad bacteria while the good bacteria will return to normal levels in a few generations.