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Yes, we need one anyway.

17 (21.8%)

No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.

27 (34.6%)

I don't care, let's see what happens.

34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75

[LordBucket]

*sigh*

Just had a real life conversation with a real life person in real life.

Her position is that all muslims are crazy and want to kill everybody and that we should kill them all before they kill us. And that killing, quote "millions of innocent civilians" in collateral damage would a great and acceptable trade for killing all muslims.

This person votes.

[Vilanat]

In March 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:
It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

[miauw62]

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to what we were discussing, except as half-hearted flamebait.

[Frumple]

*sigh*

Just had a real life conversation with a real life person in real life.[snip]

... was that actually your first time? I've been hearing that or things very much like it, offline, at least monthly since around '01, usually from different people.

[LordBucket]

was that actually your first time? I've been hearing that or things very much like it, offline, at least monthly since around '01, usually from different people.

No. I've heard the "nuke them to glass" and "turn the middle east into a parking lot" arguments before. But this was the first such conversation I've had in person since the Paris attacks, and 9-11 anger has considerably diminished over the years. This is still emotionally fresh, it seems, despite being thousands of miles and across an ocean away.

Started out with her expressing disgust that if the US was able to give France information about ISIS target locations, why hadn't the US already destroyed those targets? Because complete extermination was assumed from her worldview to be..."of course" the objective. I pointed out that while ISIS may be headquartered in Raqqa, it's a city of a couple hundred thousand people and last I'd read, only 3000 ISIS members were believed to be in the city.

To which her position was, kill them all.

Tried giving an analogy, imagine a couple thousand nutcases with guns shooting up her home town, or imagine them in Los Angeles, would she kill all the millions of people in Los Angeles just to kill those couple thousand too?

She insisted that yes, she would. Because "kill all infidels muslims."

[Frumple]

S'what I'm sayin', LB. I've pretty regularly poked the folks saying stuff like that regarding whether they cared if civilians died, whether they were actually okay with murdering thousands of civilians and uninvolved, children among them, just to see more muslims dead

The answer has consistently been yes, during this whole period. Frequency of hearing it has reduced, somewhat, but the vehemence and desires involved haven't really changed. In the states, at the very least, there is a pretty large population for which the only good muslim is a dead one, regardless of the muslim's age, inclinations, and so on.

E: I will say it's actually kinda' heartening the sentiment actually more or less died down, wherever you're at. It didn't where I'm at.

[Vattic]

So... starve em out and give em only Bacon and Ham? ... Well... it'll work out in the end I suppose...  How does Islam consider cannibalism?

EDIT: Actually offer a 3rd option, surrender yourself and you can have non-bacon foods.

From what I gather forbidden acts can be permissible in times of necessity.

[Flying Dice]

TIL that empathy=sympathy.
Hint: No, not actually. Understanding why people fight for ISIS is an important element of destroying the bases they have for recruitment and expansion, and has the added benefit of shutting down the same sort of efforts on the home front by assholes who are using terrorism and the fears associated with it to shroud their own bigotry and push agendas rooted in hate and ignorance.

Even the article which focuses on prisoners from ISIS who are immediately hard to find and prone to blowing up rather than surrender or else be executed admits that the interviews are anecdotal and not representative, and it also draws the line between Iraqis and foreign fighters which we've known for long. Understanding why stops being useful when the why means undoing the invasion of Iraq. Can't exactly bring Saddam from the dead.

Yes, because learning from history is pointless and we will never do anything in the ME or anywhere else with similar issues ever again. Lessons learned from destabilizing a region and fostering conflict and poverty are clearly only applicable to that one region, because people never have similar motivations when in similar situations if they're not in the exact same place and time. 

If I was a gambling man, I'd put money on most of the real fanatics being people who were born and raised in Europe, North America, &c.--the sons of immigrants who found the rhetoric and in-group environment appealing.

Well when we're done reducing the intelligence of this thread to hurrrdurrr, or arguing against the ever surreptitious bigotry, hate and hatebigotry depends on what you mean by fanatic. You would find a range of beliefs and motives, and being a fanatic only means single-minded zeal. I don't know what is directed as who as everyone is being too vague, but eh whatever. As long as it's chill and devoid of passive aggressiveness.

[/quote]
I'm having difficulty parsing this as anything beyond "You're dumb," followed by word salad. Or are you suggesting that you're going to find the exact same ratio of ideologically and religiously driven ISIS fighters versus financially/emotionally-driven ISIS fighters from both places where they came of age in impoverished war-torn shitholes watching friends and family being killed and places where they were raised in relatively peaceful democracies with some degree of financial stability?

[Loud Whispers]

Yes, because learning from history is pointless and we will never do anything in the ME or anywhere else with similar issues ever again. Lessons learned from destabilizing a region and fostering conflict and poverty are clearly only applicable to that one region, because people never have similar motivations when in similar situations if they're not in the exact same place and time. 

That's not what you're doing and there is literally no one in this thread that does not think the invasion of Iraq was a mistake who are you arguing with?

I'm having difficulty parsing this as anything beyond "You're dumb," followed by word salad.

Dude I was quoting you

Or are you suggesting that you're going to find the exact same ratio of ideologically and religiously driven ISIS fighters versus financially/emotionally-driven ISIS fighters from both places where they came of age in impoverished war-torn shitholes watching friends and family being killed and places where they were raised in relatively peaceful democracies with some degree of financial stability?

No

[Morrigi]

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to what we were discussing, except as half-hearted flamebait.

Thing is, it's not incorrect either.

[IronyOwl]

*sigh*

Just had a real life conversation with a real life person in real life.[snip]

... was that actually your first time? I've been hearing that or things very much like it, offline, at least monthly since around '01, usually from different people.

was that actually your first time? I've been hearing that or things very much like it, offline, at least monthly since around '01, usually from different people.

No. I've heard the "nuke them to glass" and "turn the middle east into a parking lot" arguments before. But this was the first such conversation I've had in person since the Paris attacks, and 9-11 anger has considerably diminished over the years. This is still emotionally fresh, it seems, despite being thousands of miles and across an ocean away.

Started out with her expressing disgust that if the US was able to give France information about ISIS target locations, why hadn't the US already destroyed those targets? Because complete extermination was assumed from her worldview to be..."of course" the objective. I pointed out that while ISIS may be headquartered in Raqqa, it's a city of a couple hundred thousand people and last I'd read, only 3000 ISIS members were believed to be in the city.

To which her position was, kill them all.

Tried giving an analogy, imagine a couple thousand nutcases with guns shooting up her home town, or imagine them in Los Angeles, would she kill all the millions of people in Los Angeles just to kill those couple thousand too?

She insisted that yes, she would. Because "kill all infidels muslims."

This is reasonably literally why we can't have nice things. Imagine what people like this could do if they weren't convinced vast numbers of people were intending and able to kill them, and needed to be disposed of first at any and all costs.

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to what we were discussing, except as half-hearted flamebait.

Thing is, it's not incorrect either.

It's factually accurate, but there's no explicit meaning attached to it. Hence looking like flamebait, since it feels like it's trying to imply something it's not willing to openly say.

[martinuzz]

From what I gather forbidden acts can be permissible in times of necessity.

True. A muslim is allowed to eat halouf (meat that is not halal) when not doing so would mean starvation.
A muslim may also consume alcohol, when it is used as an ingredient for life-saving medicine prescribed by a doctor. (which is a popular way in some arab countries for the rich elite to drink legally; they just pay a doctor to prescribe them something that is labelled as medicine, but tastes suspiciously like single malt)

Forbidden acts are also permitted in times of ignorance.
If you give a muslim porc meat while telling him 'it's halal sheep', it is not haram for him to have eaten porc meat. Because he did not know.

[Sheb]

Apparently a female kamikaze blew herself up during a police raid on the flat of the supposed mastermind of the attacks, not killing anyone else, several people arrested.

[Morrigi]

Apparently a female kamikaze blew herself up during a police raid on the flat of the supposed mastermind of the attacks, not killing anyone else, several people arrested.

It's an ongoing standoff, apparently. 1 suicide bomber dead, another suspect killed, 5 police with minor injuries, one police dog possibly dead, several arrests, and 1-2 suspects still holed up. The French police were going after the suspected mastermind of the Paris attacks.

[martinuzz]

Yeah, from what I've seen in the latest news is that police and army are kinda holding off at the moment, fearing the place is rigged with explosives. I'd say time for the army to use a nerve toxin that enters the body through the skin, so gasmask are useless. I mean, I suppose the 2 men left holed up are wearing those, or they'd be carried out snoring loudly on sleeping gas hours ago now

On other news; I wonder what exactly the "threat to the entire city of Hannover" was that cancelled the friendly soccer competition between the Netherlands and Germany. The German chancellor of the province has stated that "the decision to cancel the match and evacuate was a correct decision, as the threat was real. The situation is now stable", but he cannot tell anything about the nature of the threat, since that is "classified".
Angela Merkel has called members of the government to Berlin for a special meeting on the event.

I sure hope it wasn't a dirty bomb they found and neutralized.

EDIT: looks like the situation in Saint-Denis is under control. My newspaper reports the action has resulted in the arrest of 7 people who were planning to attack the Paris business district of La Défense. The action took the life of 2 people; one woman detonated a bombvest, and apparently the second death was a random citizen who got caught in the crossfire. A police dog also died.

picture of the french police dragging one of the suspects to custody. Looks like they double tapped him in the ass, judging by the red on his shirt.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/photoseries/articlephotos/4189268/5b0c258c-034f-45d2-989b-b334a2e6ff57