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Yes, we need one anyway.

17 (21.8%)

No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.

27 (34.6%)

I don't care, let's see what happens.

34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Lemme try to get this debate in a more productive direction: Since Islam is not going to vanish off the face of the earth any time soon, what can be done to reduce support for terrorism in Muslim countries and among the marginalized Muslim communities in the Western nations?

The EU could move the slider a bit more towards assimilation, for one. I'm a bit tired for digging up the link, but it's the Pew World Muslim Survey that showed the depth of the radical gap between the US/Canada and the EU. It's pretty severe. I understand the desire not to go all cultural genocide on immigrant communities, but frankly EU policies towards immigration in general encourage the formation of self-contained hostile communities. Part of welcoming immigrants should include weaving them into the destination culture.

And yes, in an ideal world a carrot and stick approach to Saudi Arabia is the least the world could do.

[LordBucket]

what can be done to reduce support for terrorism in Muslim countries and among the marginalized Muslim communities in the Western nations?

I'd suggest putting a halt to western imperialist interference. Stop overthrowing countries and funding anti-government groups and building military bases over there. Leave them alone, basically. Let them kill each other over arguments as to which relative was the rightful successor to Muhammad instead of giving them a common enemy to fight against.

If there's to be "war" then fight it with culture rather than bombs. Give them McDonald's and Disneyland and free internet porn and let them decide for themselves whether they'd rather have hedonism now rather than waiting for it in a glorious afterlife. When you live in daily misery, the words of an Imam are probably a lot more compelling than they would be if they had to compete with the joys and distractions of modern civilization.

Also, ending oil dependence and putting an end to the oil trade might help. If there wasn't all that money and foreign interest, the middle east might tend to become a place of considerably less importance.

[RedKing]

Lemme try to get this debate in a more productive direction: Since Islam is not going to vanish off the face of the earth any time soon, what can be done to reduce support for terrorism in Muslim countries and among the marginalized Muslim communities in the Western nations?

Invade Saudi Arabia

No seriously they've been the birthplace of most radical islamic movements, it would do world a lot of good if you put it under UN control and erase their "absolute monarchy" regime off the map.

Yeah, and conquering Mecca and Medina totally wouldn't inflame a global jihad.

[Zangi]

Lemme try to get this debate in a more productive direction: Since Islam is not going to vanish off the face of the earth any time soon, what can be done to reduce support for terrorism in Muslim countries and among the marginalized Muslim communities in the Western nations?

Invade Saudi Arabia

No seriously they've been the birthplace of most radical islamic movements, it would do world a lot of good if you put it under UN control and erase their "absolute monarchy" regime off the map.

Then 'we' superbly fuck it up as all the dogs on the Saudi leash are let loose and decide they don't like them western backstabbers throwing coups around the middle east and installing puppet democracies... Cold War Electric Boogaloo II: Same old shit, but dressed in a hot bikini this time around

[TempAcc]

...Does Netanyahu have a sock puppet account now? 

Mind you, I have no high opinions of Netanyahu or his policies, nor am I indiferent to the palestine's situation. That Islam has historically persecuted jews is no time cube, though. We can't pretend Islam hasn't been specially harmful to certain ethnic groups because there are people opportunistically mentioning this to further their agendas.

Agreed with Sergarr, though, except on the whole ~invade~ part. Saudi Arabia is quite known for being the force behind many terrorist forces, directly or indirectly, and is one country that westerners and hail as being civilized because it looks pretty, only that it is pretty terrible all around towards anyone who isn't rich enough.

[Sheb]

MSH, I wonder what policies would "pushing the slider more toward assimilation" would entail.

[RedKing]

Personally, I don't regard Saudi Arabia as civilized. If you want a civilized Muslim country, look at Jordan. Look at the UAE. Look at Brunei. Look at Qatar.

[misko27]

People should chill. You aren't politicians, so no one actually cares about the discussion here in the real world. You won't solve ISIS, but you might make this forum a little less pleasant in the future.

I sense that things will continue more or less as they have until something really serious happens to change things (in other news, the sky is often blue). The entities involved don't really have many cards to play, so I suspect little immediate change until it builds more. ISIS would more or less cease to be the thing that it has become if it lost it's land base, so I find that the most important thing to focus on. Land intervention by the US is not forthcoming at least until a new administration arrives, I am sure, and whoever comes into power then will likely be seen by history as the person to "own" that war if it does happen. Short of that, I find it difficult to see the trends on the ground as to who has the overall momentum (I lack the proper knowledge to say), and whether they will continue to hold the momentum. Overall, I bet I am more optimistic then others regarding the likelihood of overall victory, but that may be perhaps because I am uninterested in quick solutions and I am willing to accept the amount of blood that will be spilled until then, regardless of what happens.

As for the refugee crisis, I have little to say. It should stop eventually, and until then the Euros have to find some way to deal with it. The method and degree to which they do so successfully will determine a lot about the state of affairs in Europe 20 years from now.

[Sergarr]

Lemme try to get this debate in a more productive direction: Since Islam is not going to vanish off the face of the earth any time soon, what can be done to reduce support for terrorism in Muslim countries and among the marginalized Muslim communities in the Western nations?

Invade Saudi Arabia

No seriously they've been the birthplace of most radical islamic movements, it would do world a lot of good if you put it under UN control and erase their "absolute monarchy" regime off the map.

Yeah, and conquering Mecca and Medina totally wouldn't inflame a global jihad.

And that's why you specifically put Iran's authorities in charge for these holy sites. This should provide a sufficiently durable target for all these jihadists

Not that I seriously believe that they'll actually bother to do anything so large as a "global jihad"; most people who would go to jihad have already done so, ordinary Muslim are highly unlikely to actually do anything besides loud complaining. Remember, Muslim are people, not kill-murder machines that will unleash their infinite rage upon the world if you do anything to their holy sites. They'll rage for a bit, and then most of them will accept the new status-quo. The ones that don't will be much easier to clean up, now that you've deprived them of their main financial backers and safe hideouts.

In other words, terrorist movements are much less dangerous when they don't have actual states with Big Money™ backing them up.

[Starver]

This is all true, and I based my post largely on what l've read about the UK tagging system too. A lot of people remove their tags. If you want a laugh the right wing press over here particularly like stories of people slipping them. YouTube even appears to have tutorials.

I get a good laugh from reviewing the headlines on the news-stand, I must admit.  (Across the spectrum, but then I like to think I'm even handed in my cynicism towards the art of the headline writers.  A good trick is to look at the headlines first and try to guess which particular banner you will see when you allow yourself to glance upwards.)

I'm not about to start looking at those YouTube tutorials, so I'll just naively mumble something about application problems, likely.    (And tech/process failures aided by incompetence.  Assuming that the alleged tag-wearer is even still alive, or out of prison, even whilst the contractor is still being paid to monitor them..(!))


((As to Paris, I was going to deliberately pause at 11am, today, but I was travelling so it ended up moot and I just sat still in my seat and talked even less to my fellow passengers that I was not already doing.))

[redwallzyl]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/16/456181539/paris-attacks-live-updates-french-authorities-identify-mastermind

good article with a lot of information. France seems to be going all out on the war on isis thing. good its about time.

[smjjames]

Lemme try to get this debate in a more productive direction: Since Islam is not going to vanish off the face of the earth any time soon, what can be done to reduce support for terrorism in Muslim countries and among the marginalized Muslim communities in the Western nations?

Invade Saudi Arabia

No seriously they've been the birthplace of most radical islamic movements, it would do world a lot of good if you put it under UN control and erase their "absolute monarchy" regime off the map.

Yeah, and conquering Mecca and Medina totally wouldn't inflame a global jihad.

And that's why you specifically put Iran's authorities in charge for these holy sites. This should provide a sufficiently durable target for all these jihadists

Not that I seriously believe that they'll actually bother to do anything so large as a "global jihad"; most people who would go to jihad have already done so, ordinary Muslim are highly unlikely to actually do anything besides loud complaining. Remember, Muslim are people, not kill-murder machines that will unleash their infinite rage upon the world if you do anything to their holy sites. They'll rage for a bit, and then most of them will accept the new status-quo. The ones that don't will be much easier to clean up, now that you've deprived them of their main financial backers and safe hideouts.

In other words, terrorist movements are much less dangerous when they don't have actual states with Big Money™ backing them up.

ISIS doesn't have an actual state with Big Money™ backing them up and they're pretty dangerous. Though much of their rise has to do with filling in a vacuum and partially dumb luck.

@misko: Yeah you're probably right that we won't see an increased land presence until the next adminstration, but a year is a long time and anything could happen.

[Helgoland]

The Hitler Effect?

[smjjames]

What are you referring to Helgo?

[ggamer]

Lemme try to get this debate in a more productive direction: Since Islam is not going to vanish off the face of the earth any time soon, what can be done to reduce support for terrorism in Muslim countries and among the marginalized Muslim communities in the Western nations?

Invade Saudi Arabia

No seriously they've been the birthplace of most radical islamic movements, it would do world a lot of good if you put it under UN control and erase their "absolute monarchy" regime off the map.

Yeah, and conquering Mecca and Medina totally wouldn't inflame a global jihad.

And that's why you specifically put Iran's authorities in charge for these holy sites. This should provide a sufficiently durable target for all these jihadists

Not that I seriously believe that they'll actually bother to do anything so large as a "global jihad"; most people who would go to jihad have already done so, ordinary Muslim are highly unlikely to actually do anything besides loud complaining. Remember, Muslim are people, not kill-murder machines that will unleash their infinite rage upon the world if you do anything to their holy sites. They'll rage for a bit, and then most of them will accept the new status-quo. The ones that don't will be much easier to clean up, now that you've deprived them of their main financial backers and safe hideouts.

In other words, terrorist movements are much less dangerous when they don't have actual states with Big Money™ backing them up.

ISIS doesn't have an actual state with Big Money™ backing them up and they're pretty dangerous. Though much of their rise has to do with filling in a vacuum and partially dumb luck.

contrary to what AJZ has been throwing around a lot of ISIL's resources come from wealthy Sunni benefactors in Saudi Arabia. In fact if I had to wager I'd put good money on almost all their resources being either given by wealthy Saudis or leftover US hardware looted from Iraq