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Should this thread become the new European Politics thread?

Yes, we need one anyway.
- 17 (21.8%)
No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.
- 27 (34.6%)
I don't care, let's see what happens.
- 34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75


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Author Topic: The Paris Attacks  (Read 59780 times)

smjjames

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #165 on: November 14, 2015, 07:19:07 pm »

Ok. So, same question I asked smjjames: what do you propose? Stirring up the hornets has not ended well for us previously. And it hasn't ended well for the civilians over there either. If military action is what you want, in order to put an end to what you perceive as a threat...how do you propose to go about that? I already asked this same question several thread pages ago.

How do you do it?

How do you send troops in and selectively identify the people you want to kill, and kill only the people you want to kill? How do you send troops in and kill people without turning their friends and neighbors into jihadists in the process? How do you take military control of a host population without breeding widespread resentment?

How do you accomplish your specific goal without creating more problems in the process?
Pick an existing force in the region that does not support the undesirables and has a durable platform, make a deal with it that it clears up all undesirable people in exchange for you supporting it with money/advisors/intelligence/weapons/airstrikes/drone strikes. Any resentment generated is tanked by the proxy force, any collaterals, too.

Except that there really isn't such a force (other than the Kurds, but oh no, we don't want to upset Turkey), why do you think we're trying to create one in there? Or rather, were, not sure if we're still trying to.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 07:21:55 pm by smjjames »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #166 on: November 14, 2015, 07:23:06 pm »

Except that there really isn't such a force, why do you think we're trying to create one in there?
Russia supports the Syrian gov's security forces / loyalist militants. Restoring the Syrian government and changing the regime seems to me the best option without giving Syria the Libya treatment

smjjames

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #167 on: November 14, 2015, 07:29:11 pm »

Except that there really isn't such a force, why do you think we're trying to create one in there?
Russia supports the Syrian gov's security forces / loyalist militants. Restoring the Syrian government and changing the regime seems to me the best option without giving Syria the Libya treatment

Which is to the US, one of those 'undesirable forces'.

The problem here is, how do you restore the government without letting them continue the civillian slaughter and at the same time making sure that the corrupt sections don't gain a hold again and it goes right back to where it was? That's kind of the problem we had in Iraq and if you guys in Europe (that includes Russia) want to take on the challenge where we (as in the US) failed, you're free to do so.

Of course though, the first order of business is to get ISIS out of there.
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Sergarr

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #168 on: November 14, 2015, 07:36:49 pm »

Ok. So, same question I asked smjjames: what do you propose? Stirring up the hornets has not ended well for us previously. And it hasn't ended well for the civilians over there either. If military action is what you want, in order to put an end to what you perceive as a threat...how do you propose to go about that? I already asked this same question several thread pages ago.

How do you do it?

How do you send troops in and selectively identify the people you want to kill, and kill only the people you want to kill? How do you send troops in and kill people without turning their friends and neighbors into jihadists in the process? How do you take military control of a host population without breeding widespread resentment?

How do you accomplish your specific goal without creating more problems in the process?
Pick an existing force in the region that does not support the undesirables and has a durable platform, make a deal with it that it clears up all undesirable people in exchange for you supporting it with money/advisors/intelligence/weapons/airstrikes/drone strikes. Any resentment generated is tanked by the proxy force, any collaterals, too.

Except that there really isn't such a force (other than the Kurds, but oh no, we don't want to upset Turkey), why do you think we're trying to create one in there? Or rather, were, not sure if we're still trying to.
Trying to create such a force is undeniably the Biggest Mistake that Euro/USA has done in Middle East. Such forces cannot be created within any reasonable time frame.

And I was talking about Syria, Kurds and Iraq-under-Iran-micromanagement. Notably, all of them have "friendly" (as much as this word can be used in politics) relationships with Russia.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #169 on: November 14, 2015, 07:38:37 pm »

The problem here is, how do you restore the government without letting them continue the civillian slaughter and at the same time making sure that the corrupt sections don't gain a hold again and it goes right back to where it was? That's kind of the problem we had in Iraq and if you guys in Europe (that includes Russia) want to take on the challenge where we (as in the US) failed, you're free to do so.
Of course though, the first order of business is to get ISIS out of there.
Win the war, then fix Syria, then worry about relapse

smjjames

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #170 on: November 14, 2015, 07:42:59 pm »

Ok. So, same question I asked smjjames: what do you propose? Stirring up the hornets has not ended well for us previously. And it hasn't ended well for the civilians over there either. If military action is what you want, in order to put an end to what you perceive as a threat...how do you propose to go about that? I already asked this same question several thread pages ago.

How do you do it?

How do you send troops in and selectively identify the people you want to kill, and kill only the people you want to kill? How do you send troops in and kill people without turning their friends and neighbors into jihadists in the process? How do you take military control of a host population without breeding widespread resentment?

How do you accomplish your specific goal without creating more problems in the process?
Pick an existing force in the region that does not support the undesirables and has a durable platform, make a deal with it that it clears up all undesirable people in exchange for you supporting it with money/advisors/intelligence/weapons/airstrikes/drone strikes. Any resentment generated is tanked by the proxy force, any collaterals, too.

Except that there really isn't such a force (other than the Kurds, but oh no, we don't want to upset Turkey), why do you think we're trying to create one in there? Or rather, were, not sure if we're still trying to.
Trying to create such a force is undeniably the Biggest Mistake that Euro/USA has done in Middle East. Such forces cannot be created within any reasonable time frame.

We've failed miserably at it already, so it's already a waste of time.

Quote
And I was talking about Syria, Kurds and Iraq-under-Iran-micromanagement. Notably, all of them have "friendly" (as much as this word can be used in politics) relationships with Russia.

At least if you screw up, it won't be on the US's hands.

Of course though, you do know the US government isn't going to let Iran have Iraq and the Kurds would rather be under their own micromanagement.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 07:46:04 pm by smjjames »
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LordBucket

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #171 on: November 14, 2015, 07:47:13 pm »

your source does not corroborate your claim that they raped anyone (unless you count weird unnecessary enemas and exams, which is technically correct but weasely as hell). They threatened to, yeah. Not the same thing.


EDIT:
In the interest of thread health and avoiding a thread lock I have edited this post to remove one unnecessarily snarky comment and a couple paragraphs of vivid, graphic descriptions of very illegal things being done by US soldiers.

For those who are interested in verification of the assertions of which scrdest is apparently skeptical, this wikipedia link may prove a useful starting point in your research.

Sergarr

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #172 on: November 14, 2015, 07:53:01 pm »

Of course though, you do know the US government isn't going to let Iran have Iraq.
They already de-facto did, Iraq is currently Iran's proxy with "Shia milities" being bigger than their conventional army, it has recently placed a unified command-and-information centre for Syria-Russia-Iran-Iraq activities on its territory, and I'm certain there are other indicators of Iraq being Iran's bitch vassal state.

USA lost Iraq the moment they moved their troops out, pretty much. It was obvious to everyone that a state as weak as Iraq would immediately fall under sway of the large, powerful, and a direct neighbour to boot, like Iran.
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scrdest

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #173 on: November 14, 2015, 07:59:33 pm »

*sigh* stop wasting my time, dude
No, YOU stop wasting MY time. Which is exactly what you're doing if you expect me to find corroboration for your claims in a completely different article. Or don't pretend to be backed by that source. It's not that hard.

Since my mind-reading skills don't work well over the Internet, postponing my world domination scheme, as far as I'm concerned you took a sensationalist headline and ran with it without even reading the article you linked to. End of.
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We are doomed. It's just that whatever is going to kill us all just happens to be, from a scientific standpoint, pretty frickin' awesome.

smjjames

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #174 on: November 14, 2015, 08:02:24 pm »

Yeah, they were already being friendly to Iran before we even left. I wouldn't be surprised if the Shiia sections of Iraq decided to let themselves be absorbed by Iran, but what about the Sunni portions? That is a question the Iranians are going to have to deal with, should they vassalize (or sattelite state) Iraq.
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Reelya

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #175 on: November 14, 2015, 08:44:46 pm »

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/14/world/paris-attacks/

Was catching up with this mornings news about the attacks, what got my attention was the sheer number of typos and illiteracy in the CNN article.

Quote
the worst violence in France since World Word II
World Word II - the world's most deadly online scrabble tournament.

"Belgium intelligence" sometimes and "Belgian intelligence" other times.

Idiocracy was right.

LordBucket

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #176 on: November 14, 2015, 08:47:50 pm »

I'm still trying to figure out what your point is.

1) To provide alternate citations for the claim for which scrdest found my previous citation inadequate. I assume he wasn't accepting that the event happened and objected to my particular link solely to troll, but rather, actually believed that it never happened. So, I provided sources.

2) To graphically illustrate the point that a significant portion of the terrorism we see is retaliatory in nature. When western powers are doing that kind of thing you really expect for it to come without repercussion?

3) To dispel the illusion that "we are good and they are evil." It sometimes seems to me that some people approach the middle east with a similar mindset as they have towards football teams. That "theirs is good" because it's theirs.

Imagine that you punch somebody in the face and that they punch you back. Does everyone agree that their having punched you back is not a good justification for punching them a second time? The west has a long history of doing bad things to the middle east. Before anyone become too deeply attached to feelings of self-righteously being the good guy in this situation, I advise examining very closely why these people are doing the things they're doing.

Loud Whispers

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #177 on: November 14, 2015, 09:35:26 pm »

Yes, terrorism tends to be reactionary, but ISIL is certainly not born of a reactionary fight against the West. It's born of a reactionary fear of oppression of those of the Sunni faith by those of the Shia. Having the west "stop throwing punches" won't make this problem go away.
It's born of the ambitions of Abu Bakr and his schism with Al Qaeda backed by a healthy whollop of Sunni Islamic fundamentalists wishing to recreate their ideal world.

And before you say that "the Middle East can deal with its own problems" remember that this entire refugee crisis is brought out of trying to accomplish just that.
More complicated than that. Destroying Libya, Germany's encouragement of immigration and the insufficient response to the ME in addition to Islamist movements from Pakistan to Somalia - the refugee crisis is for another thread because it is one vast one.

I can guarantee what little effort the West has put into stopping ISIL and ISIS has not directly caused the massive volume of refugees to flood into Europe.
The West has put a great deal of effort into destroying ISIS. I am quite annoyed when everyone assumes that since there's no reported success nothing is being done. I was absolutely appalled when people in the Europol thread were saying France, Britain - even America were sitting on their bums doing nothing when their soldiers were still fighting everywhere across the world and still in Syria to boot. ISIS's land grab was reversed because of the West's air strikes. The Kurds don't want to stretch themselves out too far beyond their control and the Iraqis don't have the capability or will to fight alone. And so the West can keep killing ISIS soldiers and to that end drain its manpower and eliminate threats to the West (most recently two planning attacks on the UK were killed and Jihadi John was also killed with these air strikes) but Bagdhadi merely changed strategy and adapted. Again, like I said a year ago these attacks would happen because Bagdhadi said it himself. Create volcanoes of jihad on your homefront and tie up foreign nations with hesitance, fear, confusion and demoralization, to expand the perceived control of the state across the world and improve brand image and ultimately lead to more success against the sustained air strikes. One of the criticisms Obama levied on the Russians was that they would alienate themselves from the Sunni world by siding with the Shiites, and to that end most Western countries have large Sunni populations of their own which makes things complicated too, in addition to usual war weariness (in regards to committing large scale ground troops. Special forces roaming around assassinating ISIS leaders is not enough to fully eradicate the whole militancy).
The air strikes used to be hampered by the fact that the militants could move between Syria or Iraq and  state aircraft could not cross the border. Now they have no safe areas, so they choose to attack everywhere and be as formless as possible. The great Western powers all have elite police units and security bureaus to counter this to minimize damage on home soil, and the attacks on Paris have not caused France to cease operations. But putting a stop to ISIS? Even a state of total war would from the USA, China, Russia, Britain, France, Turkey, Israel and Iran would take some time to kill them all - they're very slippery, and very eager to take advantage of any foreign weakness.

Strife26

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #178 on: November 14, 2015, 09:45:24 pm »

Such optimism in this thread. Wheel of history doesn't spin on the command of countries.

And a state of total war (using a proper definition of the war, instead of whatever weird concept people take for total war these day) from that list of countries would literally be enough to outnumber the entire population of Syria and Iraq. Back of the envelope calculation on a total war style Iran would let just Iran + Turkey do it, actually.
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Reelya

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #179 on: November 14, 2015, 10:30:52 pm »

It's kinda tiring when people go "citation needed" for very well documented historical stuff or stuff that can be looked up in a few minutes. Now, if you're not educated about a topic, don't comment or object to information other people are providing, unless and until you've done the research yourself.

"I'm ignorant so everything you say is wrong!" is both lazy and boring. Every time someone mentions some well-known historical event, it's not up to them to write a encyclopedic post "this topic, for dummies". If you don't know about something, it's not the fault of other people for mentioning it. Now, it is your fault for starting an argument about a topic which you're not prepared to do even basic research. don't do this, it's basically saying "i'm going to object, but it's not on me to know what I'm talking about because you didn't provide citations".
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 10:36:06 pm by Reelya »
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