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[Pseudo]

So. I've played for a while (on and off since, and most of my forts lately have ended in a decided lack of !!fun!!.

With that in mind, I have had a thought. Most of the reason why my forts aren't !!fun!! is because of my choice of world / embark. So what if someone else sets up an embark for me? Could be interesting.

As such: Vanilla 0.40.24 please, new 2x2 embark, no larger than a small world. Other than that, whatever, have fun. Note that I am not the best player, so this could be a (very) short game, depending on where I get placed. But meh. I'll take a stab at whatever gets thrown at me regardless.

[Immortal-D]

I think the WorldGen Cookbook thread is what you are looking for; http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140180.0

[Pseudo]

I'll crosspost there, thanks. I had initially discounted it, for what now seems to be a silly reason (embark versus world).

[Pseudo]

(The below quote is from another thread.)

The mountainhome has set the following guidelines for your outpost:
Your primary goal is to reach 5M in created wealth as quickly as possible.

Our mountainhome scouts have reported the following:
It is 10z to Armoks tears (cavern water)
It is 13z to Armoks blood (magma)
This region is ideal for producing steel.
Dust devils have been observed at the site.

Enjoy! 

Challenge accepted!



I got it on the 23rd of Limestone (i.e. early Autumn), 102 (founded in spring of 100). Almost all of that is from *spiked steel ball*s, with a little bit from misc. other things. I could have done it sooner, but I decided not to raze the fort (it's actually set up reasonably well, all things considered. Trying to keep stress down, building extra bedrooms, etc.)

Though I shall keep on playing, it's fun (although not very !!fun!! besides the insta-husk dust on the surface, which is mainly just micromanaging pain). A weird embark.

DFFD link. I'd upload it to DFMD as well, but the compressor segfaults on my computer.

[vjek]

Nicely done.  Yep, didn't want to give you something too out of hand to begin with, and the huskification is random enough it can wipe out the embark 10 seconds in, or co-incidently huskify an entire caravan, which is always bucket-loads of !!fun!!.

In any case, if you want something more challenging, would you accept:

[ ] - no cave water, aquifer or surface water of any kind on the embark
[ ] - no trees/plants of any kind on the embark
[ ] - no cave plants of any kind on the embark
[ ] - so inhospitable (weather/temperature) no animals visit the embark
[ ] - all corpses instantly become undead, on the surface
[ ] - next to 10+ necro towers
[ ] - guaranteed dozens of megabeast/semi-megabeasts

? any or all of the above?

[Pseudo]

My first caravan was husked immediately, in fact. Luckily I had boxed myself in before then, but it cost me in terms of migrants, due to the liaison.

I can't say I particularly like the insta-husking though. It's too RNG-dependent. Or rather, there's not much you can do to prepare for it (at least that's relatively short-term. If you roofed off the entire surface, I suspect it'd work. Or redirecting the caravan to the cavern, assuming that glitch still exists.). I don't mind corpses instantly causing fun, but the generic sudden death without save... meh.

Running through...
[X] - so inhospitable (weather/temperature) no animals visit the embark
[X] - all corpses instantly become undead, on the surface
[X] - next to 10+ necro towers
[X] - guaranteed dozens of megabeast/semi-megabeasts

Sure, to any of the above. Well, assuming it's possible to dig down before being killed.

[.] - no cave water, aquifer or surface water of any kind on the embark
...Maybe? I can see how you'd survive, but not really how you'd thrive... In particular, drinking water and dwarven footbaths, and obsidian (for later).

I'd be perfectly fine with hard-to-get water (cavern, a few tiles of aquifer, glacier, etc), and probably fine with a limited supply of water (muddy pools assuming it occasionally refills, etc) though.

[.] - no cave plants of any kind on the embark

Define "cave plants".  If you include trees, see below. If you don't, and you start with seeds, sure. If you don't... maybe? Depends on the surface plants, and what you have access to.

[.] - no trees/plants of any kind on the embark

Plants, see above. Trees? Does that include caverns? If no, sure. If yes... maybe? It'd be "fun" to make enough beds, especially given that caravans are likely to die...

If you don't start with seeds... I'm not sure how you'd survive - mead (or water, although that causes other issues) and butchering I suppose. It'd be difficult considering some of the other things here.


Feel free to ignore any/all of the above.

[PatrikLundell]

If the area is too inhospitable for wildlife I would expect there wouldn't be any undead to greet you either, meaning you'd have to create them yourself out of invaders (or possibly clashing invaders, if you can get several at the same time)?

No water means no working hospitals, since you can't clean anything (and soap would be worthless)? Glacier as water supply would work fine though, provided it's thick enough that you can actually "mine" some. Come to think of it, no water means no way to mine magma sea candy, since you can't use cave-ins there.

No plants either topside or in the caverns would mean all farming would be embark/caravan seed based, which in itself is no big deal (provided, of course, you're not both water AND soil less, so you can't muddy any rock. Then you'd have to dig fast and try the SMR -> sand conversion trick). In some biomes (deserts, for instance) you can nevertheless create grazing grounds topside by channeling off the top soil/clay layer. You'd then get grass, but never herbs or trees.

No trees either topside nor in the caverns would mean you'd have to rely on what you bring on embark and on caravans. If you've got metal, many of the things usually made out of wood can be made out of metal.

Mead require bees, which requires a suitable biome plus some luck. Also, no seeds at all means a severe lack of clothing.

It would be interesting to piggy back on something provided for Pseudo; it's sure to be different from what I normally embark on.

[vjek]

Alrighty, that's good feedback.
I'll see what I can cook up. 

[Pseudo]

If the area is too inhospitable for wildlife I would expect there wouldn't be any undead to greet you either, meaning you'd have to create them yourself out of invaders (or possibly clashing invaders, if you can get several at the same time)?

It is possible to have multiple sieges at the same time. If the attacking civilizations are at war with each other, they will start to fight with each other as well.

Clashing invaders would work.

No water means no working hospitals, since you can't clean anything

You can still attempt other stuff, but good luck (infections all round! Also: death by dehydration). Also: no casts, I believe.

(and soap would be worthless)?

You can still build things out of it

Glacier as water supply would work fine though, provided it's thick enough that you can actually "mine" some.

Yep. Although note that if you have *any* water on any freezing biome you have infinite water, as frozen water will melt to 7/7 always, but you only need 2/7 to freeze.

Come to think of it, no water means no way to mine magma sea candy, since you can't use cave-ins there.

Pumps. Lots and lots of pumps. And sacrificial miners.

No plants either topside or in the caverns would mean all farming would be embark/caravan seed based, which in itself is no big deal

It does mean you're stuck with whatever your civilization has access to for seeds. (And caravans, I suppose)

(provided, of course, you're not both water AND soil less, so you can't muddy any rock. Then you'd have to dig fast and try the SMR -> sand conversion trick).

One wikiwalk later... Huh. SMR is weird.

In some biomes (deserts, for instance) you can nevertheless create grazing grounds topside by channeling off the top soil/clay layer. You'd then get grass, but never herbs or trees.

Grazing (almost) doesn't matter, I've found. I tend to butcher grazing animals immediately - they aren't worth the trouble for me. Then again, I am not you.

No trees either topside nor in the caverns would mean you'd have to rely on what you bring on embark and on caravans. If you've got metal, many of the things usually made out of wood can be made out of metal.

Yep. Though unfortunately most of the substitutes are for things that dwarves haul around. The difference between a wooden bin and iron one can be significant. (And actually, generally glass is better than metal.)

It's beds that are the main problem.

Mead require bees, which requires a suitable biome plus some luck.

Yep. It'd be interesting to embark somewhere where that was the only option, though. Beekeeping isn't generally used much.

Also, no seeds at all means a severe lack of clothing.

Why? Webs and wool work quite well. (Especially GCS farms.) Though you can't really dye anything.

It would be interesting to piggy back on something provided for Pseudo; it's sure to be different from what I normally embark on.

Hence why I asked!

Also: preferably a deeper embark next time. Especially if there isn't infinite water. (Not so much cavern levels as levels of rock - preferably below the cavern...)

[PatrikLundell]

Yes, I realized that in a freezing biome all you need is a single block of ice in a location you can cave in (has to be at least 3 tiles from the edge, possibly at least 6 [if the "no building closer than 5 tiles" rule gets extended downwards when the area is exposed to the surface]).
The only reason I keep grazers is to get wool for moods, since the bulk of the clothing is produced from plant fibers early on and silk later.

I agree it's the beds that are the main problem with no local wood supply, and also that glass is very good for a lot of purposes, but I don't think you can make a glass bucket, for instance (if you don't have any water buckets are of use only for lye, I think, and lye is good only for...soap).

I generally try to get bees because I want to give my dorfs the widest booze selection possible, but mead as the only booze would require a massive bee keeping industry. Interesting is the word.

Wool require grazing, and silk farming requires at least a bit of luck to catch a GCS. If I had had to rely on silk farming in my latest fortress they'd all go naked for more than 5 years, because GCS' were late in appearing, didn't catch my bait, and were few between (and at least once the lazy dorfs took too many days to pull the lever to display my bait that the GCS had passed by my entrance). Of course, after 10 years or so one of the big FPS drains is massive covering of caverns in cave spider silk, so there should be a sufficient supply, but a fair bit of walking to collect it.

[Pseudo]

Yes, I realized that in a freezing biome all you need is a single block of ice

Yep.

in a location you can cave in (has to be at least 3 tiles from the edge, possibly at least 6 [if the "no building closer than 5 tiles" rule gets extended downwards when the area is exposed to the surface]).

Nope! Adjacent magma will also melt it, including below it. And you can build bridges and raise them to channel the resulting water. The only tricky case would be if it's right on the edge, and I suspect (although I do not know) that you can do it there too.

The only reason I keep grazers is to get wool for moods, since the bulk of the clothing is produced from plant fibers early on and silk later.

True... Though generally I find caravans and butchering to be enough.

I don't think you can make a glass bucket, for instance (if you don't have any water buckets are of use only for lye, I think, and lye is good only for...soap).

Also minecarts, wheelbarrows, and chains, among other things.

I generally try to get bees because I want to give my dorfs the widest booze selection possible, but mead as the only booze would require a massive bee keeping industry. Interesting is the word.

There's a flat limit of 40 / 60 hives, also.

Wool require grazing, and silk farming requires at least a bit of luck to catch a GCS. If I had had to rely on silk farming in my latest fortress they'd all go naked for more than 5 years, because GCS' were late in appearing, didn't catch my bait, and were few between (and at least once the lazy dorfs took too many days to pull the lever to display my bait that the GCS had passed by my entrance). Of course, after 10 years or so one of the big FPS drains is massive covering of caverns in cave spider silk, so there should be a sufficient supply, but a fair bit of walking to collect it.

Good point.

Bleh, it's raining.

[PatrikLundell]

I didn't know magma on the level below would melt ice. Thanks for that info. Wouldn't magma beside the ice just result in obsidian and a reformation of the ice as the obsidian cools, though (provided the water pours out into the magma, and not the magma pouring into the ice, in which case I'd expect either mutual annihilation, or an obsidian block with some magma beside it)? If it's right on the edge you ought to be able to pour the magma on a bridge on top of the ice (supported by something other than the ice, preferably). Some of the resulting water would off course run off the edge, but the part running "inwards" ought to be a sufficient seed for a water making industry.

Hm, the hive limit would probably put a significant damper on the mead production.

And yes, it's raining, but that's outside and I've got a roof over my head and don't need to go out, so I don't care...

[Pseudo]

Keep in mind that 1 unit of lava won't flow. This is untested, but you should be able to set up a pump pumping from the ice tile and drop one unit of lava next to the ice, which'll cause it to melt - some'll go off of the edge of the map and be lost, some'll obsidianize the lava, some'll be picked up by the pump, and some'll freeze again. And then you'll (probably) have 2 or 4 units of water not next to the edge, which you could use as a seed.

I don't know if lava above melts ice, although it'd make sense.

[PatrikLundell]

Digging under lava results in hot stone cancellations, so lava on top OUGHT to work. To be tested at some time or other!

Using the magma beside ice method close to the edge is tricky, because mine carts deliver magma in lots of 2. Also, you'll have to build the track stop on a natural feature off the ground or you'll run the risk of magma flowing back onto the track stop to potentially burn the hauler. Also, you'll need a fairly complicated diagonal access to the edge tile beside the ice to deliver the magma there when dumped diagonally away. Also, the hole the freed water runs down into will probably get frozen solid immediately, since you can't put a roof over it, so you'd have to use a second magma melt trick to get it from there further inwards where a roof can protect the water from the freezing elements.

Pumping the water from the edge tile will result in an immediate formation of a new ice block at the pump's output (happened to me when I tried to drain an aquifer directly under a glacier, so the output was at the cold lowest glacier level). I THINK the ice block will be supported by the pump, but I'm not sure. However, we've now effectively moved the ice to be able to use the cave-in ice melting method.
You can't build a wall or floor to place your screw pump on, but if you can build a pump at all, you can build a stack, where the lower pump is purely a complicated platform to build the operational pump on. You can't build a support below the output tile, since it's too close to the edge still, so you'd have to get the cave-in by deconstructing the pump (with the associated danger to the worker).

[vjek]

Alrighty, so this is what I've managed to get so far:

Embark temperature 10117 degrees Urist on the surface, in the summer (body fat melts at 10078)
no surface animals
no surface plants
no surface trees
no surface water
instant nobles (parent civ is dead)
no cave plants
no cave water

However, a few interesting ... bugs came to light while attempting to get this just right.

That is, evidently temperature updates don't always happen.  You can make them happen, and flowing liquids is a way to do that, so what I've had to add is..

Evil Rain
which in some cases, as that's an evil biome feature, also adds:
Instant zombie-fication of any corpses on the surface.

Given that, there is the great potential for the following to happen...  Embark starts, blood rain falls, temperature update happens, fat starts to melt off of all animals/dwarfs, bleeding ensues, death very likely, instant zombies, crumble.  It doesn't happen -every- time, but it is a strong possibility.  You basically have to turtle instantly, within the first few seconds, and pray the rain doesn't fall until you get all the supplies underground.  Without the evil rain to cause a temperature update, often the dwarfs and animals can walk around in 10120°U+ for weeks without incident.

So my question is, Pseudo, is all of these, in one embark, too much !!fun!!?  (also, this is all with a much deeper embark, as requested)

Maybe something closer to 10090°U rather than 10110°U+ would be better, to give a little more time?