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[FallacyofUrist]

It's pretty much the same as MYLO without the option for a no-lynch. You didn't have a problem there.

The full painfulness of the situation has finally set in.

[flabort]

Apologies for my continued absence, access to the internet has been sparse since the family's Christmas gifts were unwrapped.
Lots and lots of cleaning, too.

Extend

[origamiscienceguy]

I agree.

Extend

[FallacyofUrist]

Fair enough. I don't really have such problems, but for those who do,

Extend.

[SaberToothTiger]

Extend.

OSG, I added my opinion on most of the possible scenarios. It's right there.

[origamiscienceguy]

I know you did. It just seemed to me like you were saying a lot of stuff just to say it. I don't find that scummey though, it was just something I noticed. However, you seem to be more active now, so I'll Unvote

I'm still torn between FallacyofUrist and Sabertooth.

[flabort]

Here's my day 1 reads on the remaining players. Do they hold up through day 2 and day 3?

Tntey: One post, promising more posts and nothing else. If he didn't start as scum, probably won't be converted until replaced. Neutral.

Swonky Donk McGraave: Barely active. New, but quick to learn. Does not like attention. Easily provoked by mispelled name. Learned hard way about editing posts. Keeps trying to avoid lynch by equating it to a lottery; and not scum hunting. Scum lean

FallacyofUrist: Active. I can't figure out why he said something about "Trump IV" in his post. Verbose but doesn't waste a word; well, that's not entirely true, but does make themselves clear. Neutral

Hector13: Most posts in the game. Inquisitive, active hunter, questions Megggas, TDS, FillipK, and myself without tunneling. Picks up on details. Doesn't like my post format. Town Lean.

OSG Replaced Tntey, far more active. Even with Star Wars. Does some pretty thourough analysis on Saber and FillipK. Day 3, Claims they can find player's original alignment, but not clones. Hector is not clone lord. Accuses Hector of waiting for Sabers claim so that Saber won't be able to counterclaim/so that Hector can fake-claim safely. Null read

SaberToothTiger target for a lot of suspicion and votes, but avoided being lynched by fillipK being scummier. This is the only post where I see him doing any scum hunting, and only against FillipK. At day end, their closing comment was "nothing to say". Day 3 their activity plummets. Once they finally post they defend Hector and claim VT. Behavior leads me to believe that there's no chance they were ever converted, so likely CL

FallacyofUrist As with "Trump IV", there's the pot of coffee. The summaries of his cases don't feel quite right - his case against FillipK could also apply against Saber. Opened day 3 by repeating attack on Saber while calling out hector. Claims Trapmaster, targeted only me. Convinced Hector is town still for "good hunting". But takes prompts from Hector, too... If he was converted, then Hector is CL, but somewhat town read

Hector13 Still observant through day 2. Less active hunting, shorter posts, but still active and responsive. Thinks Saber is noob town. Opens day 3 with vote for OSG without explaining why. Suspects FoU and stubbornly blocks FoU's efforts, waiting for Saber, still insisting Saber does not seem scummy. Claims VT once Saber does.Very likely converted Night 2, would imply Saber is CL



Given these reads, I feel SaberToothTiger is still the cult leader.

If you're worried about flabort, pressure him about something. He has claimed, perhaps you could start there?

Seems like a good idea.
flabort: why did you get TheDarkStar N1? And why Megggas N2(you may have already posted regarding that, but I'd like to hear a more in-depth explanation).

*snip* I had thought you capable of reading what was there in front of you, but it seems you're just being fed information from your cult leader.

*snip*But I will reveal this next: I think I just found who I'll target with my power next, Megggas.

As for why I killed TDS; there was reason to suspect him, but he wasn't a major target by the rest of the town. I felt that he would probably make a good convert target for that reason, and for his experience, so I pre-emptively struck to keep the cult from getting him. Also, I was kind of hoping he'd be the cult leader, but didn't have high hopes.

[hector13]

Yay, legit DP!

flabort, you dirty murdering bastard () you said here (final paragraph) that your power would determine whether you should continue your case against Megas.

Now, I could assume what this means, but you know what they say about people who assume so... I need you to tell us what you mean, considering you've not claimed an investigative role.

You missed a bit. I don't like your arguments, but will deal with those once Harry Potter is finished.

[FallacyofUrist]

... a whole lot of huh.

If I act based on flabort's suspicions, it's going to be after hector counterarguments first.
~~~
Flabort, what do you think of my vote on you?
What reason do I have not to believe you're the Clone Lord and you converted SaberTooth(or someone else) earlier?
~~~
Oh wow. I missed that. The whole hector protecting Saber thing, I mean. And vice versa...
~~~
For the moment, my vote will stay on flabort, but after some more speaking is done, that might change.
~~~

As for why I killed TDS; there was reason to suspect him, but he wasn't a major target by the rest of the town. I felt that he would probably make a good convert target for that reason, and for his experience, so I pre-emptively struck to keep the cult from getting him. Also, I was kind of hoping he'd be the cult leader, but didn't have high hopes.

I'd like to note that is somewhat problematic. "If the town can't have TDS, cult can't either?" Something of a good idea, but shouldn't you have prioritized taking out the Clone Lord, and tried to deduce who that was so you could shoot/blow up/stab him?

[flabort]

Yay, legit DP!

flabort, you dirty murdering bastard () you said here (final paragraph) that your power would determine whether you should continue your case against Megas.

Now, I could assume what this means, but you know what they say about people who assume so... I need you to tell us what you mean, considering you've not claimed an investigative role.

You missed a bit. I don't like your arguments, but will deal with those once Harry Potter is finished.

What arguments don't you like?

In that case I was being a sneaky deceptive bastard, yes. I'm good at that bit. What I meant was "I'll find out their alignment for sure (by killing them) and this will tell me a lot about their motivations; should they be scum, their death will tell me a lot about their allies and help my case against the scum." Which is a very long way of saying "I'm getting you and your scum team-mates too". Which, as it turns out, was completely incorrect because as it turned out I was mistaken and they were town.

[hector13]

Never mind, actually, HP takes too friggin' long.

OSG Replaced Tntey, far more active. Even with Star Wars. Does some pretty thourough analysis on Saber and FillipK. Day 3, Claims they can find player's original alignment, but not clones. Hector is not clone lord. Accuses Hector of waiting for Sabers claim so that Saber won't be able to counterclaim/so that Hector can fake-claim safely. Null read

This is the one that most bothers me. Given that you're jumping to fairly significant conclusions regarding your later reads, how does OSG "clearing" me not read as scummy when you do the same regarding my read on SabahToof? It's pretty much the exact same thing.

SaberToothTiger target for a lot of suspicion and votes, but avoided being lynched by fillipK being scummier. This is the only post where I see him doing any scum hunting, and only against FillipK. At day end, their closing comment was "nothing to say". Day 3 their activity plummets. Once they finally post they defend Hector and claim VT. Behavior leads me to believe that there's no chance they were ever converted, so likely CL

I assume you meant this post for the claim and defense. Not really sure how it was defending me, given it was a sentence saying they don't agree with FoU, but okay. As I've said, I think it's n00b town behaviour rather than scumminess, but I can't fault your conclusion, at least in isolation...

What about his behaviour leads you to believe that he hasn't been converted?

FallacyofUrist As with "Trump IV", there's the pot of coffee. The summaries of his cases don't feel quite right - his case against FillipK could also apply against Saber. Opened day 3 by repeating attack on Saber while calling out hector. Claims Trapmaster, targeted only me. Convinced Hector is town still for "good hunting". But takes prompts from Hector, too... If he was converted, then Hector is CL, but somewhat town read

I can fault this conclusion, however, particularly when you say that his summaries don't feel right. I'd like to see you trying to clear them up so you don't feel uncomfortable with them. Which summaries in paritcular, if any, don't feel right? What makes you feel like that?

I'm not sure how you can say I'm the CL if he was converted, seems a bit backwards to me. Could you talk me through your logic here?

Hector13 Still observant through day 2. Less active hunting, shorter posts, but still active and responsive. Thinks Saber is noob town. Opens day 3 with vote for OSG without explaining why. Suspects FoU and stubbornly blocks FoU's efforts, waiting for Saber, still insisting Saber does not seem scummy. Claims VT once Saber does.Very likely converted Night 2, would imply Saber is CL

More explaining to do. You say that I'm likely to have been converted, and if so, that would mean Saber is CL.

Unfortunately, that's not a good argument since a) you don't know if I've been converted and b) how am I any more likely than the others to have been converted. You, for example, softclaimed a PR. Why would Saber, someone who has claimed to be new, risk leaving a PR unchecked and go for someone who has been active but hasn't suspected him post-D1?

Again, it feels a bit backwards to think "if x was converted then y must be CL." but this could just be a difference in scum-hunting... it seems like you're making two assumptions, rather than just one (e.g. "y is CL because of z behaviour") and the more assumptions you have to make, the more likely you are to be wrong.

[flabort]

Flabort, what do you think of my vote on you?
What reason do I have not to believe you're the Clone Lord and you converted SaberTooth(or someone else) earlier?

As for why I killed TDS; there was reason to suspect him, but he wasn't a major target by the rest of the town. I felt that he would probably make a good convert target for that reason, and for his experience, so I pre-emptively struck to keep the cult from getting him. Also, I was kind of hoping he'd be the cult leader, but didn't have high hopes.

I'd like to note that is somewhat problematic. "If the town can't have TDS, cult can't either?" Something of a good idea, but shouldn't you have prioritized taking out the Clone Lord, and tried to deduce who that was so you could shoot/blow up/stab him?

I didn't see the vote, for one, and I think it's just a MAD vote; you assume I'm an SK, not a Vig like I claimed, and you think, "If town can't win, neither can the SK". At the very least, I don't think it's a vote to eliminate the Cult Leader, so I don't really care for it; but as to whether it bothers me for being a vote on me, it does not.

And the biggest reason I'm not the Clone Lord is that it would be completely unfair to give the cult a kill and a conversion off the bat. It's unfair to give them one easily, too, but entirely possible for them to gain one depending on the game balance. And nobody else has claimed a kill. So I cannot be the Clone Lord; it's possible, given my claim, that I could be converted, but unlikely, and it's possible that I'm an SK, but unlikely. But impossible for me to be the Clone Lord.

As to why I didn't prioritize taking out the clone lord on Night 1, I had no clue who they might be at that point. It was only on day 2 when I started suspecting who they might be, so I took my best bet by denying the cult their best convert choice. As far as night 2, I had already promised Megggas that I would target them, believing they had been converted.

PPE: Oh, high Hector. Get back to you in a moment.

[FallacyofUrist]

Flabort sees defense. Your defense of TigerDude(he still needs to be more active) against me. And then not attacking anyone else until they post(well, at least that's partially justified).
~~~
Now, I want to see this debate continue.
And hopefully someone will slip up(if they're a clone or the Clone Lord) and I'll notice it.
~~~
Ninjas.
~~~
Hm.
Have you considered that you could be the Clone Lord claiming your convert's killing role?

[hector13]

Have you considered that you could be the Clone Lord claiming your convert's killing role?

I'm having great difficult not congratulating you on such a stellar question

[flabort]

Never mind, actually, HP takes too friggin' long.

OSG Replaced Tntey, far more active. Even with Star Wars. Does some pretty thourough analysis on Saber and FillipK. Day 3, Claims they can find player's original alignment, but not clones. Hector is not clone lord. Accuses Hector of waiting for Sabers claim so that Saber won't be able to counterclaim/so that Hector can fake-claim safely. Null read

This is the one that most bothers me. Given that you're jumping to fairly significant conclusions regarding your later reads, how does OSG "clearing" me not read as scummy when you do the same regarding my read on SabahToof? It's pretty much the exact same thing.

How is you NOT being the clone lord due to a POWER ROLE the same thing as Saber being town due to a GUT FEELING?
Seriously, it's not the same thing. He claims that you can't be the Clone Lord (he doesn't say you can't be cult), due to his power. If you were the cult lord, then OSG AND FoU would have to be converts. Which would mean I had to be cult, which would mean the only town player left would be Saber.

SaberToothTiger target for a lot of suspicion and votes, but avoided being lynched by fillipK being scummier. This is the only post where I see him doing any scum hunting, and only against FillipK. At day end, their closing comment was "nothing to say". Day 3 their activity plummets. Once they finally post they defend Hector and claim VT. Behavior leads me to believe that there's no chance they were ever converted, so likely CL

I assume you meant this post for the claim and defense. Not really sure how it was defending me, given it was a sentence saying they don't agree with FoU, but okay. As I've said, I think it's n00b town behaviour rather than scumminess, but I can't fault your conclusion, at least in isolation...

Yes, that's where he defends you. Where they say they don't like someone's attack on you, a classic chainsaw defense (look up on a beginner's mafia what that means).

What about his behaviour leads you to believe that he hasn't been converted?

It hasn't changed, period. It's still consistent. The only thing that's changed is how other people react to him, specifically you.

FallacyofUrist As with "Trump IV", there's the pot of coffee. The summaries of his cases don't feel quite right - his case against FillipK could also apply against Saber. Opened day 3 by repeating attack on Saber while calling out hector. Claims Trapmaster, targeted only me. Convinced Hector is town still for "good hunting". But takes prompts from Hector, too... If he was converted, then Hector is CL, but somewhat town read

I can fault this conclusion, however, particularly when you say that his summaries don't feel right. I'd like to see you trying to clear them up so you don't feel uncomfortable with them. Which summaries in paritcular, if any, don't feel right? What makes you feel like that?

I'm not sure how you can say I'm the CL if he was converted, seems a bit backwards to me. Could you talk me through your logic here?

Location of summaries
It doesn't sit right with me that he doesn't notice that Saber didn't do any scum hunting, but said that same thing about FillipK as if Saber was innocent of that. Everything he is accusing FillipK of in his summaries, Saber is also guilty of, PLUS what he's accusing Saber of, and yet he's voting for FillipK.

So my logic: If falacy is the convert, who converted him? Saber, you, OSG, or myself? Saber wouldn't make sense, unless they've been doing some elaborate bussing. OSG wouldn't make sense, because I for one believe his claimed ability. I don't make sense, because I'm confirmed not the clone lord to myself. By process of elimination, if Falacy was converted, the only person who could have done it would be you. So why would he then claim megggas and you can't be the clone lord? Because if he's converted, megggas is dead and a safe fake-target (or maybe he really did target megggas N1), and it draws suspicion away from you.

Hector13 Still observant through day 2. Less active hunting, shorter posts, but still active and responsive. Thinks Saber is noob town. Opens day 3 with vote for OSG without explaining why. Suspects FoU and stubbornly blocks FoU's efforts, waiting for Saber, still insisting Saber does not seem scummy. Claims VT once Saber does.Very likely converted Night 2, would imply Saber is CL

More explaining to do. You say that I'm likely to have been converted, and if so, that would mean Saber is CL.

Unfortunately, that's not a good argument since a) you don't know if I've been converted and b) how am I any more likely than the others to have been converted. You, for example, softclaimed a PR. Why would Saber, someone who has claimed to be new, risk leaving a PR unchecked and go for someone who has been active but hasn't suspected him post-D1?

a) I have strong reason to suspect you've been converted, even if I don't know
b) maybe night 1 they tried to convert me and failed. I hadn't claimed my 1-shot convert immune, so maybe they figured I was just immune and HAD to leave the PR unchecked. Or maybe you were converted before I softclaimed.

Honestly, again, it's a matter of proccess of elimination.
Potential Clone Lord:  ------ Reason they can't have converted you:
Me:        Can kill
OSG: Well... the case is loose, but they could have. They DID claim to target you, and claim you're not the CL. It would be true if they were the CL.
Falacy: Too busy asking you to claim to be part of your team. You'd have to be more cooperative.
Leaving only Saber. Maaaaaybe OSG.

Again, it feels a bit backwards to think "if x was converted then y must be CL." but this could just be a difference in scum-hunting... it seems like you're making two assumptions, rather than just one (e.g. "y is CL because of z behaviour") and the more assumptions you have to make, the more likely you are to be wrong.

Sherlock Holmes: When you eliminate all the impossibilities, whatever remains, no matter how improbably, must be the truth.