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[Megggas]

Ok, I'm back again.  I realized I should probably comment on some of the other stuff going on, so I-

The converted have no power but the cult leader is night immune and we win if we get him, and if this was the case I would be kind of pissed if you converted me, I like having powers

.....

[flabort]

Do you think you have a poorer capacity for analysis than most other players, then? What do you think that means for you?

Than most other players? No,-

Excuse me I need to yell at fillipk.
~~~
WHAT ARE YOU BLOODY THINKING.
First of all, don't hide your vote in a spoiler to make the mod work.
~~~
Oh look, another post!
Of no use to us, really. If you're going to respond, respond to the important stuff.
~~~
Now, back to flabort.

No, I think I have a better capacity and speed of analysis than some other players, but definitely not all of them(this is only my fourth game of mafia, and I've only completed one thus far).
And what does that mean for me? All in all, not too much- though I'm more likely to trust the analysis of more experienced players as a result.

Well, I don't think that's his vote, I think that's a quote-error, since that vote is on himself.
And how is my question not important? It's a valid question, and it proved that he puts a lot of stock into flavor text. From what he knows he's being completely brilliant, even though he's not, by analyzing the flavor.

And fair word of warning, I'm not great at analysis either and you shouldn't trust mine as much as I trust mine; I don't consider myself experienced either.
If I said of the players here I actually considered you to be more experienced than myself, would you disagree?
More importantly, if I said I could very much find FillipK's analysis believable, what would you do?

[FallacyofUrist]

First of all, his unvote is in the second spoiler.

I didn't say your question was unimportant, I just said that the post in which he answered the question was unimportant.
I was a bit wrong about that.
Although we already knew flavor text was important for fillipk's theories and stuffs, it was good to have confirmation.

Actually, that question was unimportant. I think there's better things we could be doing, and asking fillipk about hypothetical situations is currently not one of them.

And fair word of warning, I'm not great at analysis either and you shouldn't trust mine as much as I trust mine; I don't consider myself experienced either.
If I said of the players here I actually considered you to be more experienced than myself, would you disagree?
More importantly, if I said I could very much find FillipK's analysis believable, what would you do?

And the more important bits of your most recent post. The questions. Right ho.

One. Actually, that's a statement, but noted.
Two. I would disagree simply considering the number of mafia games you've finished compared to mine.
Three. At that point, I would point out this isn't a bastard game and flavor really shouldn't matter in a game of this sort.

Sure, the flavor's good and all, and I had a little fun reading it, but flavor analysis in this game- not necessary.

[fillipk]

First off I invited because my vote was purely an unimportant pressure vote to avoid being looked at as a liar

unvote here Deus, I unvoted.
Benefits of clone lord knowing everyone is a power role:
Doesn't have to target power roles can focus on targeting players.

Benefits of Town knowing everyone is a power role, in this game:
Doesn't have to worry about accidentally killing one of the few power roles so they don't need to get fazed by role claims.

I say we get the advantage there.

My first two real posts were my first impressions on the game, which I thought everyone figured out, and I was using this belief to craft some theories.  If I had just said what I thought the cult started as and what third parties there were people would have questioned me why I think this and my "we are all special" theory would have come out. 

We did not know all the different factions in the game, that marks this game with a hint of bastardness even if it isn't advertised as such, it just means there is no puzzle to be solved or special role combination necessary.

Fallacy of Urist you seem really distressed over something that doesn't give the scum a huge advantage.  Yes I admit my original post does look like a subtle attempt at role fishing I never pressured for people to agree or disagree, I never pressured people to do a rolecall, I stated my opinion.  I feel you are trying to construct a case on me but you are forgetting something, if I was part of the cult this theory would have gone straight to a quicktopic, or I would have kept it to myself if I was the only one, since there would be no need to rolefish if everyone was a power role, it would look suspicious and threaten me.  Flabort's question wasn't unimportant, it was a follow up to his previous question, and he wanted to see me theory craft more roles.  I feel like you are trying to down play what I said instead of thinking why I would say it if I was scum.

[TheDarkStar]

Unvote

Fillipk: Claiming a power role is terrible for the town if you have no useful info. It just puts a target on your head. Note that I'm not voting for you; this is because I suspect you're telling the truth.

[fillipk]

No I realize this and kinda wish I thought about that when I first posted, but I can't take that back so I'm going with it.

[flabort]

No I realize this and kinda wish I thought about that when I first posted made any decision ever, but I can't take that back so I'm going with it.

The story of my life.
Sorry this post is pointless, my meds do strange things when they wear off, and it's late, and I took them in the morning. I think i metabolize them faster than intended. Citalopram, if you're interested in knowing what. 20 mg every morning, loopy every night.

[Megggas]

Ah, ignore my previous reaction post.  I reread the context of that statement and realized it was just fillipk speculating, not claiming he knew stuff about the cult. 

Okay, fillipk, I calmed myself down, reread the flavor text, reread your posts, and re-evaluated you.  The flavor text does mention Guardians of Earth, private space stations, players wearing masks, and other superhero comics-esque elements.  I googled your superhero name, and apparently it's some kind of mythological giant found in norse mythology, so it is probably legit.  I can now understand how you got the idea that we all superheros and power roles.  I get the impression that you actually are a power role rather than the cult leader.

Unvote. 

That said, I don't think anyone else should claim a power role.  I think your theory that we are all superhero-inspired power roles is wrong.  From a game balance perspective, if that was true, then we could easily all claim, state our abilities, and utilize our role abilities as a team to identify the cult leader and cultists to win the game easily.  For example, if our power roles were Cop, Watcher, Tracker, RoleBlocker, Commuter, Role Cop, Jailkeeper, and Vengeful, then we'd be able to use our abilities together in such ways as to confirm townies and inspect suspicious players.  Cultists would have quite the dilemna providing a fake claim too.  If they provide one too early, it could end up being a copy of another power role, which would be suspicious and worth investigation, but waiting to provide a role last would also be suspicious.  It would be a lose-lose situation for the cult unless they had a series of abilities too that they could use to "prove" their innocence.


I won't be posting much during Tuesday and Wednesday.  Real life will be keeping me busy most of that time.

[TheDarkStar]

I can confirm that there is at least one boring, power-less role.

[Deus Asmoth]

Oh, and Deus Asmoth? Is there any actual game information to be gleaned from reading flavor?

No.

[SaberToothTiger]

SabertoothTiger is this your first game of mafia? of bay12 mafia?

Please. Why are you voting to lynch somebody without a real reason? I think you are hoping to get a kill early on, so that being cult is easier for you.

hector13: I would make assumptions, but right now I haven't yet spotted anything that really catched my attention. If I would, I would immediately get suspicious, don't worry.

To Everyone: I would really like to thank all of ya for giving me friendly advice, it really means a lot.

[hector13]

flabort

flabort

Basically, if the scum aren't bright enough to come up with the same ideas on their own, they can attempt to use the strategies that we are attempting to come up with counter-strategies for.

So back to the question: Agree or Disagree?

Mmm... I'm going to say I lean toward disagree, will tell y'all why after you've answered Megas' question.

OK, I've answered.

Basically when we're theorising about scum strats, we're not actually scum-hunting.

We might not be the bright ones, and miss the strategy the scum are actually using, and an issue with laying out strategies is we may fall into the trap of "these are the only strategies that the scum might use, so we should pick the most likely one they're using and act as such"

Scum might drop in a few false strategies that we might then waste our time coming up with counters for when they're not ever going to be considered by the scum.

Finally, it allows the scum to cherry-pick the best bits out of any strategies that we come up with, maybe doing something we can't counter.

fillipk

I didn't mean to assume, and actually I never assumed that he balanced the game like that, the only thing I assumed is that we are all power roles.  You seem fairly certain that I am incorrect with that theory...

I have actually been quite careful to not overtly say whether or not I think you're correct or incorrect regarding your conclusions. What I have been doing is questioning the logic that brought you to those conclusions in the first place, which is what I'd be doing irrespective of my thoughts regarding your conclusions' veracity.

And I'm going to continue saying you did assume, so there's no real point to continuing this particular aspect of our discussion...

I like the quote, yet I can come up with powers for all 3 of them
Batman: He would be a JOAT, a one shot kill, one shot night immunity, one shot invest, one shot protect. This is because batman is notoriously hyper prepared for any situation.
Robin: He would be a vigilante as he isn't as prepared as batman, but he would have more uses of his abilities
Aqua Man: Haven't read many of his comics but I would say he would be pretty useless on a space station unless there was water and sea life so maybe a watcher?  Look through the eyes of the animals he controls

... Though maybe that you're continuing trying to support your assumptions is something I'd like to point out and ask: why? Are you too proud to admit you might be wrong?

To quote you from before "When everyone is special, then no-one will be."  If everyone has a power role it doesn't matter who the clone lord targets with his conversion.  Personally I would rather know if everyone was a power role from he getgo rather then worrying if we lost one of the important people with every conversion

This bit doesn't make sense, to me anyway. Even if everyone has a power role, given your role is the only information you have about anything in the game, you can't be sure everyone has a useful power role, essentially making them a Vanilla Townie.

I find it hard to believe that based on the only evidence you can stand by to be useful (your own role) that you can conclude - and be comfortable in that conclusion! - that everyone else is a power role. It boggles my mind.

To be honest no I didn't think about that, at least consciously.  Also I present choice C) I am a power role preforming a gambit, you kinda forgot that one.

In presenting choice C, you've made choice C an unlikely alternative. If you were a gambiting power role, why would you point it out?

I hadn't forgotten about it, it was something I thought was possible, and if it was, it would more 'n likely be a pro-town thing to be happening, so I didn't mention it. It was also one of the things that made me doubt that you might be scum so... you kinda dropped yourself in it there.

Your right, maybe the third vote was a bit much, but honestly that was the most suspicious thing I had seen so far and I did say I was going to vote in my previous post.  Unvote.

Mmm... not sure about this bit. I'm trying to avoid confirmation-bias but you're not making it easy

The fact you're removing your vote after I mentioned that it was unnecessary kinda makes it look like you're trying not to draw much attention to yourself...

Chromatic Wasp

On how he balanced the game?  Clone lord's minions can become the clone lord, or they all have his powers, if we get one then he can still act through his cult, and he starts with one, its how I would have done it.  As for third parties, I would say there would probably be a survivor, reporter type person, can't think of much else.

I can't be the only one who thinks that this was an excessively detailed explanation of a "hypothetical" scum mechanic that we just got from filipk, can I? I mean, that just all seems really, really specific. Not only specific, but a lot of the information seems a little vague, as if he's communicating knowledge he feels we should know just as well as he does. Almost as if he's not quite grasping that he might be a little more familiar with scum roles than us, not to mention how that might not be a good thing to let us know.

But that's just my opinion.

I've made red and green bits in your quote, because they seem to be mutually exclusive to me. How can something be detailed and specific, but also vague at the same time?

It just strikes me as a little weird that you're going for something and explaining it in a way that doesn't make sense as a reason for voting filipk - which is different from everyone else - as though you're trying to look like you're not jumping on a band wagon...

Perhaps it's just the way you presented things. Could you clarify, please?


Also, Deus Asmoth, maybe a prod for tntey? He hasn't posted since Saturday. I know it's the weekend, but still... ages. Anyway, it has nearly been 36 hours since midnight Sunday night/Monday morning, so it's close enough heh.

[FallacyofUrist]

Fallacy of Urist you seem really distressed over something that doesn't give the scum a huge advantage.  Yes I admit my original post does look like a subtle attempt at role fishing I never pressured for people to agree or disagree, I never pressured people to do a rolecall, I stated my opinion.  I feel you are trying to construct a case on me but you are forgetting something, if I was part of the cult this theory would have gone straight to a quicktopic, or I would have kept it to myself if I was the only one, since there would be no need to rolefish if everyone was a power role, it would look suspicious and threaten me.  Flabort's question wasn't unimportant, it was a follow up to his previous question, and he wanted to see me theory craft more roles.  I feel like you are trying to down play what I said instead of thinking why I would say it if I was scum.

First of all, that looks awfully much like a reactionary vote against me, for your own self-protection.

And really- I was wrong about something- your theories do actually have use: they cause provocation. And you might be able to verify at least part of your theories via seeing the reactions of other players. If you were cult, that's one reason you might have posted them. Or just to confuse us.

And besides- flavor is not valid evidence. Without evidence, your theories are still going to be theories, no matter how much supposed information you gather from other players' reactions.

You can't hold too much stock in flavor.
Actually, you can't hold any stock in flavor in this game.

Hm. I need to focus in a bit.
~~~
Yes, I am trying to downplay what you're saying. Because it's all based on flavor and speculation.
If you want to make yourself useful D1, start hunting scum.
It's fine if you want to start with me, you're still hunting.

[Megggas]

I can confirm that there is at least one boring, power-less role.

Ehh, so you're claiming too?  Does your role flavor text mention a superhero name like fillipk's?

(pfp)

[fillipk]

I guess I got a bit ahead of myself and your right my theory is kinda looks stupid now, and apparently is wrong if people are to be believed, but it has had two effects on this game.

1. If I avoid getting lynched and people start calming down and seeing me as town I've made myself a target for the cult as a realitively safe convert and someone with a power role

2. It stirred up a hornet's nest of new content to analyze and maybe find scum.

Yes FoU, my vote was kinda reactionary trying to find someone else to suggest as scum, wish I had paid more attention to the sabertooth post.