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[fillipk]

On how he balanced the game?  Clone lord's minions can become the clone lord, or they all have his powers, if we get one then he can still act through his cult, and he starts with one, its how I would have done it.  As for third parties, I would say there would probably be a survivor, reporter type person, can't think of much else.

What ploy, if we are all power roles like I think then we all have a thematic name, because we are all superheroes, we will have a super hero identity as our role name, mine is Jotunn, since by saying this I am claiming to be a power role.  I'm not rolefishing you can say if you are a power role or not.  If I was the clone lord I would keep this to myself and not worry about hitting a power role and let everyone else consider the fact that there might be vanilla townies.  Plus day 2 we can claim powers and name.

[hector13]

I don't think people should say if they are a power role or not. If you're wrong and not everyone is a power role, it will allow the cult to consider who would be the most dangerous with a PR and try to convert them. If you're right, you've just revealed a fairly significant secret the town has.

Could you clarify what you mean by saying you think all the cultists have the Clone Lord's powers? Specifically looking for what powers you think the Clone Lord has, and which ones are shared among the cult.

Further I have to point out that just because you'd balance a game a particiular way, doesn't mean DA has done it that way.

[Chromatic Wasp]

On how he balanced the game?  Clone lord's minions can become the clone lord, or they all have his powers, if we get one then he can still act through his cult, and he starts with one, its how I would have done it.  As for third parties, I would say there would probably be a survivor, reporter type person, can't think of much else.

I can't be the only one who thinks that this was an excessively detailed explanation of a "hypothetical" scum mechanic that we just got from filipk, can I? I mean, that just all seems really, really specific. Not only specific, but a lot of the information seems a little vague, as if he's communicating knowledge he feels we should know just as well as he does. Almost as if he's not quite grasping that he might be a little more familiar with scum roles than us, not to mention how that might not be a good thing to let us know.

But that's just my opinion.

[fillipk]

I don't think people should say if they are a power role or not. If you're wrong and not everyone is a power role, it will allow the cult to consider who would be the most dangerous with a PR and try to convert them. If you're right, you've just revealed a fairly significant secret the town has.

Could you clarify what you mean by saying you think all the cultists have the Clone Lord's powers? Specifically looking for what powers you think the Clone Lord has, and which ones are shared among the cult.

Further I have to point out that just because you'd balance a game a particular way, doesn't mean DA has done it that way.

First you asked me how he would have balanced the game and I don't think like him so I gave the next best thing.

Second, I don't think it was ever a secret, we are superheroes

Third, I think the clone lord has the power to create clones, clones of himself with his ability to create clones, therefore it would not matter who the cult leader was and I think it would be a good way to balance all your enemies being able to mess with your clones.  Alternatively we all have powers to watch, invest, protect and roleblock and not to kill, in which case they can only convert one person a night, and we could block that.

Fourth, I didn't say we should reveal today, tomorrow maybe but it does nothing if we reveal today, it just lets the clone lord pick who they think has the juiciest power.

Fifth, this is all hypothetical and if you get the opinion I'm sharing too much or that I am right might I ask why you think that, with text quotes please

[FallacyofUrist]

...
AAAAAGHHH WHYY FILLIPK MUST YOU DOOO THIS!!!
~~~

The first day is a tad bit early to post theories about the gameplay of a game which has no real givens beyond "there is a cult".
Speculate, sure, that's fine, but post theories?
Especially theories that are stated so matter-of-factly?

fillipk. You are attracting quite a bit of suspicion. I'm keeping my pressure vote on SaberToothTiger for the moment(I don't think he's responded to the stuff that made me do that yet), but I've got my eye on you.

Oh. And a rebuttal to all this crazy:
~~~
I don't know what to say to-

First you asked me how he would have balanced the game and I don't think like him so I gave the next best thing.

Because I lack a bit of context.

Second, I don't think it was ever a secret, we are superheroes

First of all, period.
But more importantly, nowhere in the flavor does it say that we are superheroes.
For all we know, we're some sort of secret society intent on conquering earth, only to have our plans interrupted by the heroic Clone Lord.
Or not. We can't say until more flavor.

Of course, in a non-bastard game, flavor isn't that important.

Third, I think the clone lord has the power to create clones, clones of himself with his ability to create clones, therefore it would not matter who the cult leader was and I think it would be a good way to balance all your enemies being able to mess with your clones.  Alternatively we all have powers to watch, invest, protect and roleblock and not to kill, in which case they can only convert one person a night, and we could block that.

... a theory, an interesting one- but again, it's too early to say! You, whatever your role is, only know what you are(unless masons or something are involved) and that's it! How would you possibly know there are no kills for the Guardians?

Fourth, I didn't say we should reveal today, tomorrow maybe but it does nothing if we reveal today, it just lets the clone lord pick who they think has the juiciest power.

Let's give you a question: Why not wait to claim until the last day?(even if when the last day is is hard to determine...)
But I agree with you that a claim on D1 is a bad idea(town are likely going to end up fake claiming as a result of common sense, and everything becomes worthless, plus the obvious factor you stated).

Fifth, this is all hypothetical and if you get the opinion I'm sharing too much or that I am right might I ask why you think that, with text quotes please

All hypothetical, but now is not the time for theories, now is a time for investigation.

A question: how are you supposed to devise accurate theories about the game without knowing anything but what your role is and the fact that there is a cult?

Honestly, any theories you make now just confuse the town.
Wait a day or two and then go for it.

This crazy may be somewhat offset by your noobiness-
But I think I might actually prefer to have a pressure vote on you than SaberToothTiger.
~~~

vote fillipk, and I'm still watching you SaberToothTiger.

[hector13]

Ah, lists. I can do lists...

Had to actually come to a computer to address this bit properly

First you asked me how he would have balanced the game and I don't think like him so I gave the next best thing.

Fair point, but you're also making fairly significant assumptions about how many roles he put in the game in the first place, which suggested to me you put some thought into other possible permutations of the game, too...

My point being that you said you would have balanced the game in such a way, and then seem to have assumed that that's how DA actually set the game up. This strikes me as too simple an error for someone to make.

Second, I don't think it was ever a secret, we are superheroes

Perhaps, but I have to quote The Incredibles because it's just too good an opportunity not to:

"When everyone is special, then no-one will be."

Perhaps DA has considered that there are super-heroes (like Batman and Robin, or Aquaman) that don't have powers that would translate to a power role, so those kinds of super-heroes are the VTs?

Fourth, I didn't say we should reveal today, tomorrow maybe but it does nothing if we reveal today, it just lets the clone lord pick who they think has the juiciest power.

You didn't directly say that, no, but you did say "it makes sense for everyone to be a power role" which invites people to say "I think you're wrong" (indirectly saying "I'm not a power role") or "I think you're right" (indirectly saying "I have a power role") which does not strike me as pro-town, especially considering what Megas set out in their role-creation post about what he would do if he were the CL, namely target people with power roles.

Fifth, this is all hypothetical and if you get the opinion I'm sharing too much or that I am right might I ask why you think that, with text quotes please

Hypothetical or not, it looked like sneaky role-fishing. Anyway, you asked for quotes, I give you quotes:

SabertoothTiger is this your first game of mafia? of bay12 mafia?

This game has strong superhero themes with the Guardians of the Earth and a satellite base so therefore it makes sense for everyone to be a power role.  There are 9 people in this game, 1 cult puts the cult at a disadvantage if what I think is true and we all have a power role, therefore there is either a third party or multiple cult to start with.

The bold part is you sharing too much. Did you consider that saying "I think everyone has a power role" reveals that you have a power role, because you're not going to come to the conclusion that everyone has a power role if you don't have a power role?

I don't think anyone with a power role is going to reveal on D1, because that would mean the PR can't be used, so it stands to reason that either:

a) you're a VT performing a gambit.

or:

b) you're a cultist performing a gambit.

The information that's going to be revealed by people responding to you are going to be revealing some information that is anti-town (whether or not they have a PR) so I find it really hard to believe it's option a).

Obviously these are not the only options, but they seem the likeliest to me. Others feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

I also don't like how you voted for Saber... FoU already said their vote was a pressure vote, my vote, while not stated outright, was a pressure vote (implied perhaps by my play advice to Saber) and there were also two others who FoS'd Saber. I think Saber had enough people expressing chagrin (half the other players) of his distaste of attention that he would get the point that it's not the way we play on B12.

You also asked Saber if this was his first game of mafia, as well as (later in the post you voted for him) that what he was doing might be a newbie mistake so... I'm not sure how all that warrants a third "pressure" vote, and a fifth person saying "hoy! don't be doing that!"

PPE: FoU... not really stealing my thunder so I won't swear at you. At least not until later...

[FallacyofUrist]

Hm.

What's a "VT"?

[hector13]

Hm.

What's a "VT"?

Vanilla Townie.

[FallacyofUrist]

Good to know.

I'll have to remember that.

[hector13]

Good to know.

I'll have to remember that.

I assume you see no issues with the two options I laid out with Fillipk regarding gambits? I ask as you were unaware to what my first option was referring.

[FallacyofUrist]

It's either a gambit or idiocy.
That's what it looks like to me.

[flabort]

How would a more experienced player get more use out of one ability while you'd get more use out of the other? What do you define as experience?

The easier question here is "what do you define as experience", so I'll start with that.

Experience, in non-numerical terms, is the ability to not be nooby. "We should lynch him because I think he is scum." Nooby. Like so. (by the way, that's paraphrased from the first mafia game I played on these forums.)
But once you get past a certain point, noobyness is no longer a problem, and what experience really gets to means... thinking further ahead, thinking of better gambits, using your role more effectively...
If you define experience in a sport or a game of any sort, I'd say that the most common definition of experience would be "Someone with more experience does better at the game than someone with less."

Now, for the second question, "how would a more experienced player get more use out of one ability while you'd get more use out of the other", which as I stated above, is the harder question.
It just seems like truth to me, like "the sky is blue", or "the cosine of 60 degrees is 1/2".

Okay. See, like I said earlier, hitting the cult leader with a 1-shot kill is a matter of luck and analysis. And someone with more experience is likely better at analysis than someone with less.

I'd have less chance of using the 1-shot kill to its best effect, so I'd prefer to have something which can be used repeatedly.
~~~

I guess that makes sense. Except for, the sky isn't blue, it's a clear gas at the edge of which light from the sun refracts.
But you did answer this at least somewhat satisfactorily.
Do you think you have a poorer capacity for analysis than most other players, then? What do you think that means for you?

flabort

Basically, if the scum aren't bright enough to come up with the same ideas on their own, they can attempt to use the strategies that we are attempting to come up with counter-strategies for.

So back to the question: Agree or Disagree?

Mmm... I'm going to say I lean toward disagree, will tell y'all why after you've answered Megas' question.

OK, I've answered.

FillipK How does my answer to FoU make you feel?

Honestly, your answer didn't make me feel anything.  I will try to be more active in this game but it is somewhat limited due to rehearsals and school, usually I will be posting from my phone and will have small posts, but I will refrain from active lurking.

OK. What about the fact that I would have converted you if I was the cult leader? That doesn't make you feel anything?
OK, new question, then.
Let's say the villains name had been "The Devoured", what would your theory as to the cult's nature been then?

[fillipk]

Spoiler: Megggas (click to show/hide)

...
AAAAAGHHH WHYY FILLIPK MUST YOU DOOO THIS!!!
~~~

The first day is a tad bit early to post theories about the gameplay of a game which has no real givens beyond "there is a cult".
Speculate, sure, that's fine, but post theories?
Especially theories that are stated so matter-of-factly?

fillipk. You are attracting quite a bit of suspicion. I'm keeping my pressure vote on SaberToothTiger for the moment(I don't think he's responded to the stuff that made me do that yet), but I've got my eye on you.

Oh. And a rebuttal to all this crazy:
~~~
I don't know what to say to-

First you asked me how he would have balanced the game and I don't think like him so I gave the next best thing.

Because I lack a bit of context.

Second, I don't think it was ever a secret, we are superheroes

First of all, period.
But more importantly, nowhere in the flavor does it say that we are superheroes.
For all we know, we're some sort of secret society intent on conquering earth, only to have our plans interrupted by the heroic Clone Lord.
Or not. We can't say until more flavor.

Of course, in a non-bastard game, flavor isn't that important.

But this is a bastard game or at least semi-bastard and based on the ones I've read that means flavor text matters and the opening flavor text shows we are public and liked by the world, or at least respected

Third, I think the clone lord has the power to create clones, clones of himself with his ability to create clones, therefore it would not matter who the cult leader was and I think it would be a good way to balance all your enemies being able to mess with your clones.  Alternatively we all have powers to watch, invest, protect and roleblock and not to kill, in which case they can only convert one person a night, and we could block that.

... a theory, an interesting one- but again, it's too early to say! You, whatever your role is, only know what you are(unless masons or something are involved) and that's it! How would you possibly know there are no kills for the Guardians?

I don't, I'm speculating.  Also you misread that paragraph.  It described two different situations

Fourth, I didn't say we should reveal today, tomorrow maybe but it does nothing if we reveal today, it just lets the clone lord pick who they think has the juiciest power.

Let's give you a question: Why not wait to claim until the last day?(even if when the last day is is hard to determine...)
But I agree with you that a claim on D1 is a bad idea(town are likely going to end up fake claiming as a result of common sense, and everything becomes worthless, plus the obvious factor you stated).

Because if we are all unique it would be easier to spot an odd ball if we claimed our name and powers, Especially since the clone lord would have to make up a name and powers.

Fifth, this is all hypothetical and if you get the opinion I'm sharing too much or that I am right might I ask why you think that, with text quotes please

All hypothetical, but now is not the time for theories, now is a time for investigation.

A question: how are you supposed to devise accurate theories about the game without knowing anything but what your role is and the fact that there is a cult?[/quote]Looking at flavor text, when not all groups are confirmed beforehand it means that the flavor text probably means something, and can and should be used to theorize. 

Honestly, any theories you make now just confuse the town.
Wait a day or two and then go for it.

What has changed by me theorizing that all the town are power roles, we are still investigating for scummyness.

This crazy may be somewhat offset by your noobiness-
But I think I might actually prefer to have a pressure vote on you than SaberToothTiger.
~~~

vote fillipk, and I'm still watching you SaberToothTiger.
[/quote]

Spoiler: Hector13 (click to show/hide)

Ah, lists. I can do lists...

Had to actually come to a computer to address this bit properly

First you asked me how he would have balanced the game and I don't think like him so I gave the next best thing.

Fair point, but you're also making fairly significant assumptions about how many roles he put in the game in the first place, which suggested to me you put some thought into other possible permutations of the game, too...

My point being that you said you would have balanced the game in such a way, and then seem to have assumed that that's how DA actually set the game up. This strikes me as too simple an error for someone to make.

I didn't mean to assume, and actually I never assumed that he balanced the game like that, the only thing I assumed is that we are all power roles.  You seem fairly certain that I am incorrect with that theory...

Second, I don't think it was ever a secret, we are superheroes

Perhaps, but I have to quote The Incredibles because it's just too good an opportunity not to:

"When everyone is special, then no-one will be."

Perhaps DA has considered that there are super-heroes (like Batman and Robin, or Aquaman) that don't have powers that would translate to a power role, so those kinds of super-heroes are the VTs?

I like the quote, yet I can come up with powers for all 3 of them
Batman: He would be a JOAT, a one shot kill, one shot night immunity, one shot invest, one shot protect. This is because batman is notoriously hyper prepared for any situation.
Robin: He would be a vigilante as he isn't as prepared as batman, but he would have more uses of his abilities
Aqua Man: Haven't read many of his comics but I would say he would be pretty useless on a space station unless there was water and sea life so maybe a watcher?  Look through the eyes of the animals he controls

Fourth, I didn't say we should reveal today, tomorrow maybe but it does nothing if we reveal today, it just lets the clone lord pick who they think has the juiciest power.

You didn't directly say that, no, but you did say "it makes sense for everyone to be a power role" which invites people to say "I think you're wrong" (indirectly saying "I'm not a power role") or "I think you're right" (indirectly saying "I have a power role") which does not strike me as pro-town, especially considering what Megas set out in their role-creation post about what he would do if he were the CL, namely target people with power roles.

To quote you from before "When everyone is special, then no-one will be."  If everyone has a power role it doesn't matter who the clone lord targets with his conversion.  Personally I would rather know if everyone was a power role from he getgo rather then worrying if we lost one of the important people with every conversion

Fifth, this is all hypothetical and if you get the opinion I'm sharing too much or that I am right might I ask why you think that, with text quotes please

Hypothetical or not, it looked like sneaky role-fishing. Anyway, you asked for quotes, I give you quotes:

SabertoothTiger is this your first game of mafia? of bay12 mafia?

This game has strong superhero themes with the Guardians of the Earth and a satellite base so therefore it makes sense for everyone to be a power role.  There are 9 people in this game, 1 cult puts the cult at a disadvantage if what I think is true and we all have a power role, therefore there is either a third party or multiple cult to start with.

The bold part is you sharing too much. Did you consider that saying "I think everyone has a power role" reveals that you have a power role, because you're not going to come to the conclusion that everyone has a power role if you don't have a power role?

I don't think anyone with a power role is going to reveal on D1, because that would mean the PR can't be used, so it stands to reason that either:

a) you're a VT performing a gambit.

or:

b) you're a cultist performing a gambit.

The information that's going to be revealed by people responding to you are going to be revealing some information that is anti-town (whether or not they have a PR) so I find it really hard to believe it's option a).

Obviously these are not the only options, but they seem the likeliest to me. Others feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

To be honest no I didn't think about that, at least consciously.  Also I present choice C) I am a power role preforming a gambit, you kinda forgot that one.

I also don't like how you voted for Saber... FoU already said their vote was a pressure vote, my vote, while not stated outright, was a pressure vote (implied perhaps by my play advice to Saber) and there were also two others who FoS'd Saber. I think Saber had enough people expressing chagrin (half the other players) of his distaste of attention that he would get the point that it's not the way we play on B12.

You also asked Saber if this was his first game of mafia, as well as (later in the post you voted for him) that what he was doing might be a newbie mistake so... I'm not sure how all that warrants a third "pressure" vote, and a fifth person saying "hoy! don't be doing that!"

PPE: FoU... not really stealing my thunder so I won't swear at you. At least not until later...

Your right, maybe the third vote was a bit much, but honestly that was the most suspicious thing I had seen so far and I did say I was going to vote in my previous post.  Unvote.

[fillipk]

How would a more experienced player get more use out of one ability while you'd get more use out of the other? What do you define as experience?

The easier question here is "what do you define as experience", so I'll start with that.

Experience, in non-numerical terms, is the ability to not be nooby. "We should lynch him because I think he is scum." Nooby. Like so. (by the way, that's paraphrased from the first mafia game I played on these forums.)
But once you get past a certain point, noobyness is no longer a problem, and what experience really gets to means... thinking further ahead, thinking of better gambits, using your role more effectively...
If you define experience in a sport or a game of any sort, I'd say that the most common definition of experience would be "Someone with more experience does better at the game than someone with less."

Now, for the second question, "how would a more experienced player get more use out of one ability while you'd get more use out of the other", which as I stated above, is the harder question.
It just seems like truth to me, like "the sky is blue", or "the cosine of 60 degrees is 1/2".

Okay. See, like I said earlier, hitting the cult leader with a 1-shot kill is a matter of luck and analysis. And someone with more experience is likely better at analysis than someone with less.

I'd have less chance of using the 1-shot kill to its best effect, so I'd prefer to have something which can be used repeatedly.
~~~

I guess that makes sense. Except for, the sky isn't blue, it's a clear gas at the edge of which light from the sun refracts.
But you did answer this at least somewhat satisfactorily.
Do you think you have a poorer capacity for analysis than most other players, then? What do you think that means for you?

flabort

Basically, if the scum aren't bright enough to come up with the same ideas on their own, they can attempt to use the strategies that we are attempting to come up with counter-strategies for.

So back to the question: Agree or Disagree?

Mmm... I'm going to say I lean toward disagree, will tell y'all why after you've answered Megas' question.

OK, I've answered.

FillipK How does my answer to FoU make you feel?

Honestly, your answer didn't make me feel anything.  I will try to be more active in this game but it is somewhat limited due to rehearsals and school, usually I will be posting from my phone and will have small posts, but I will refrain from active lurking.

OK. What about the fact that I would have converted you if I was the cult leader? That doesn't make you feel anything?
OK, new question, then.
Let's say the villains name had been "The Devoured", what would your theory as to the cult's nature been then?

The converted have no power but the cult leader is night immune and we win if we get him, and if this was the case I would be kind of pissed if you converted me, I like having powers

[FallacyofUrist]

Do you think you have a poorer capacity for analysis than most other players, then? What do you think that means for you?

Than most other players? No,-

Excuse me I need to yell at fillipk.
~~~
WHAT ARE YOU BLOODY THINKING.
First of all, don't hide your vote in a spoiler to make the mod work.

But this is a bastard game or at least semi-bastard and based on the ones I've read that means flavor text matters and the opening flavor text shows we are public and liked by the world, or at least respected.

... if it was a bastard game or semi-bastard Deus would have advertised it as such.

Looking at flavor text, when not all groups are confirmed beforehand it means that the flavor text probably means something, and can and should be used to theorize. 

What has changed by me theorizing that all the town are power roles, we are still investigating for scummyness.

... your theories only distract us at this point- they may or may not be correct, but without information, information that is going to take time to gather(and is basically nonexistent D1), they have no real benefit.
Keep your speculation to yourself. Please.

Actually, theorizing on the nature of a non-bastard game D1 is just filler. Potentially useful filler, but still only potentially. Attack a player, investigate, fight, dangit.
Now is not the time for theorizing.

Oh, and Deus Asmoth? Is there any actual game information to be gleaned from reading flavor?

Personally I would rather know if everyone was a power role from he getgo rather then worrying if we lost one of the important people with every conversion.

Has it occurred to you that if you prove in day that everyone's a power role, or do something to that effect, that will benefit the Clone Lord(he now no longer needs to worry about whether his cloning will remove a power role from the town)?

And use periods better.

Also I present choice C) I am a power role preforming a gambit, you kinda forgot that one.

... if choice C was true, and not everybody had a power role, you're making yourself a target for the Clone Lord.
Not the best idea D1.

Your right, maybe the third vote was a bit much, but honestly that was the most suspicious thing I had seen so far and I did say I was going to vote in my previous post.  Unvote.[/spoiler]

And finally, as soon as you receive a few posts worth of pressure, you back off your vote.
~~~

All in all, my vote is no longer a pressure vote, but an actual attempt at taking down scum.

~~~
Oh look, another post!
Of no use to us, really. If you're going to respond, respond to the important stuff.
~~~
Now, back to flabort.

No, I think I have a better capacity and speed of analysis than some other players, but definitely not all of them(this is only my fourth game of mafia, and I've only completed one thus far).
And what does that mean for me? All in all, not too much- though I'm more likely to trust the analysis of more experienced players as a result.