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Author Topic: A Game of Clones: Game Over, Town-Cult Draw!  (Read 52424 times)

fillipk

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2015, 03:23:10 pm »

I will answer all my question and do a real post on Monday, I'm just too busy till then.
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Giving waitlisted people the ability to murder non-responsive players was a great idea. Need to do that more often.

flabort

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2015, 03:28:42 pm »

Agreed, activity is paramount. What is the best way to establish activity and content, in your opinion?
Myself, I am of the opinion that when answering questions we should ask more questions so that another response is necessary, thereby creating an opportunity for more content to be created. Do you agree?
For the RVS stage, I agree that that is basically the best course of action.  Once something controversial happens, it may be better to use more selective questioning to increase pressure on suspect people.  We'd still need to keep an eye on people out of the spotlight though.

flabort:
Do you think that power roles recruited by the cult keep their abilities?  If so, what led you to that conclusion?
I would ask how you define the spotlight, and people out of it, but I think we both know the answer to that one.

I'm not sure if cult members keep their abilities. It seems possible, but without more data I can't say for sure. As far as the likelihood of it, I got to that conclusion by your discussion with Hector, where he said that you had implied that cultists keep their abilities and you Denied it. One of you either knows more than you are letting on, or you're both guessing. Either way, neither of you wants to say you believe it completely but neither of you is completely convinced it's impossible. That leads me to believe that there must be some possibility of it.

flabort
I vote the lurker - where did they get that insight? Is it because they're genuinely insightful... or is it because they have some extra knowledge? Player B on the other hand, well, activity is good; even if it goes no-where, and not pressing their points can be excused as newbie mistakes or forgetfulness. But I'd have to ask some pointed questions of both players before the end of the lynch as well; try to get more information from each of them in case either of them has anything that would make me change my mind.

What sort of things would you be looking for from each player in order to solidify your reads on them?

I see... you think it likely that the cult will try to convert anyone likely to have useful abilities, correct? New question: Would the most useful abilities against the cult be the most useful abilities for the cult to have?

This comes more from agreeing with Megas that it would be a pretty solid strategy for the cultist(s) to use, seeing as I had never really considered it... but yes.

The second part comes with a caveat, mainly whether or not converts retain their pre-recruitment abilities. If we have any killing abilities, they would help the cult so they can reach their win-con quicker than just through mislynches and converts.

Even if they don't, any ability the town had but can't use anymore will benefit the Cult.

Normally I wouldn't answer questions like this, but Megas had already pointed it out anyway so... yeah. Uncertain on whether or not my normal reticence to answer these things is a good thing though, seeing as it also reveals the scums' potential strategies to the rest of the town, and they may not have considered it - like Megas pointing out the stuff about power roles.
I would be looking for anything that might explain their behavior - I'd be asking about who they voted and why, mostly, but also asking them to explain their lurking or lack of pressure. It mostly depends on any other factors, though; such as what sorts of cases they had formed, and any scum tells they might have had that I can turn into pressure questions. And finally, I'd ask them what they thought of the people voting them, and whether or not I should try and stop both wagons in their opinions, and why.

I think it's better to have any and all potential strategies out in the open so that counter-strategies can be formulated. Agree or disagree?

I will answer all my question and do a real post on Monday, I'm just too busy till then.
Keep this in mind and don't forget.
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SaberToothTiger

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2015, 05:16:32 pm »

Megggas: I decided to start playing mafia because it might be fun and enlightening. Why did you? Why are you trying to put attention onto me?

TheDarkStar: You misspelled my name. I am greatly offended and don't trust you anymore.

FallacyOfUrist: It would all depend on the player's previous actions. And why would he send me that message out of all other possible recipients?
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hector13

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2015, 06:37:35 pm »

Megggas: I decided to start playing mafia because it might be fun and enlightening. Why did you? Why are you trying to put attention onto me?

PFP

SaberTooth: the implication being that you don't want attention on yourself. Why not, brah?

Will reply to flavorful (aka flabort, stupid phone... doesn't even spell the word right!) once I get to a computer later. Formatting their post to a way I like it is far, far too much effort using a phone :o
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Megggas

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2015, 07:20:16 pm »

(PFP)
SaberToothTiger:
Megggas: I decided to start playing mafia because it might be fun and enlightening. Why did you? Why are you trying to put attention onto me?
I started playing for similar reasons.  What about my question makes you believe that I was trying to put attention onto you?  Even if I was, why would that be a bad thing?  Do you have a clear idea of how to play?

--
I'll answer other questions later when I'm back at a computer.
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hector13

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2015, 10:27:10 pm »

I would be looking for anything that might explain their behavior - I'd be asking about who they voted and why, mostly, but also asking them to explain their lurking or lack of pressure. It mostly depends on any other factors, though; such as what sorts of cases they had formed, and any scum tells they might have had that I can turn into pressure questions. And finally, I'd ask them what they thought of the people voting them, and whether or not I should try and stop both wagons in their opinions, and why.

Speaking of scum tells... how do you think they will differ in a game such as this? How will your scum hunting in this game be different from a regular* game of mafia?

*regular in this instance meaning the only anti-town faction is the mafia. Basically a BM-type setup with a couple of power roles, 5 vanilla townies and 2 scum, and you're one of the VTs.

I think it's better to have any and all potential strategies out in the open so that counter-strategies can be formulated. Agree or disagree?

Before I answer this (I may have to be reminded to do that) I will first ask: why do you think this would be a good course of action?
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

hector13

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2015, 10:27:44 pm »

EBWOP, the above post being referred to flabort, in case it gets missed.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

flabort

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2015, 11:18:14 pm »

EBWOP, the above post being referred to flabort, in case it gets missed.
I think that's clear enough.

I would be looking for anything that might explain their behavior - I'd be asking about who they voted and why, mostly, but also asking them to explain their lurking or lack of pressure. It mostly depends on any other factors, though; such as what sorts of cases they had formed, and any scum tells they might have had that I can turn into pressure questions. And finally, I'd ask them what they thought of the people voting them, and whether or not I should try and stop both wagons in their opinions, and why.

Speaking of scum tells... how do you think they will differ in a game such as this? How will your scum hunting in this game be different from a regular* game of mafia?

*regular in this instance meaning the only anti-town faction is the mafia. Basically a BM-type setup with a couple of power roles, 5 vanilla townies and 2 scum, and you're one of the VTs.

I think it's better to have any and all potential strategies out in the open so that counter-strategies can be formulated. Agree or disagree?

Before I answer this (I may have to be reminded to do that) I will first ask: why do you think this would be a good course of action?
I'm... not sure how scum tells will differ. There may be a few additional ones, such as unexplained attitude changes, but I think most will be the same. I already explained how my hunting will differ, see quote below.

Re: Good idea: Because we need counter-strategies to combat the cult! Scum-hunting is excelent if everyone is doing it, but that's really rarely the case these days. We can compliment scum-hunting and make it more effective if we have some sort of strategy to counteract the strategies of the scum/cult. And we can come up with the counter strategies if we can think of all the strategies that the scum will use. Why? I would have thought it obvious.
flabort: How would you approach scumhunting in a cult game?
Well, never assume that because someone is a confirmed town now, they will be later. Especially after nights.
So, approach everyone more often, take a more direct and aggressive approach to questioning, and assume every day is day 1 with higher stakes.
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hector13

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2015, 11:46:48 pm »

Re: Good idea: Because we need counter-strategies to combat the cult! Scum-hunting is excelent if everyone is doing it, but that's really rarely the case these days. We can compliment scum-hunting and make it more effective if we have some sort of strategy to counteract the strategies of the scum/cult. And we can come up with the counter strategies if we can think of all the strategies that the scum will use. Why? I would have thought it obvious.

Indeed. Did you note any drawbacks with this process? If so, what?

Bed-time, no new posts 'til tomorrow. Probably.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

flabort

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2015, 11:56:25 pm »

Re: Good idea: Because we need counter-strategies to combat the cult! Scum-hunting is excelent if everyone is doing it, but that's really rarely the case these days. We can compliment scum-hunting and make it more effective if we have some sort of strategy to counteract the strategies of the scum/cult. And we can come up with the counter strategies if we can think of all the strategies that the scum will use. Why? I would have thought it obvious.

Indeed. Did you note any drawbacks with this process? If so, what?

Bed-time, no new posts 'til tomorrow. Probably.
Basically, if the scum aren't bright enough to come up with the same ideas on their own, they can attempt to use the strategies that we are attempting to come up with counter-strategies for.

So back to the question: Agree or Disagree?
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Megggas

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2015, 01:56:36 am »

Megas
I primarily mentioned this on a whim, just because I had thought of that "Surveyer" role in advance and wanted to explain how I came up with it.  I also figured that my "cult leader plan" might provoke comments and discussion, which I figured was a good thing.  I wasn't expecting that post alone to clear me.

What sort of points do you think the other players may have brought, in discussing your hypothetical gambit?
Ehh, I admittedly didn't think too deeply about what kind of comments and discussion it would provoke.  It was still the RVS, I was kind of bored at the time, and I just felt like talking about the role I made up and my crazy pre-game cult leader plan.  I guess I expected more reactions and more criticism.

flabort:
How much priority do you put on analyzing potential cult strategies and designing counter strategies relative to scum hunting?  Do you think that topic is only worth discussing during the RVS, or also during later times, such as Day 2 and beyond?

I'm going to bed now.  I've had a busy day.  I'll post more tomorrow.
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SaberToothTiger

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2015, 05:12:47 am »

SaberTooth: the implication being that you don't want attention on yourself. Why not, brah?

I do not want attention because lynch happy players like you might just get excited and kill a town for no apparent reason.

(PFP)
SaberToothTiger:
Megggas: I decided to start playing mafia because it might be fun and enlightening. Why did you? Why are you trying to put attention onto me?
I started playing for similar reasons.  What about my question makes you believe that I was trying to put attention onto you?  Even if I was, why would that be a bad thing?  Do you have a clear idea of how to play?
I am paranoid about being lynched day one, as I consider it a lottery. As in, you lose most of the time. Also, what is the usual response to editing in Mafia? As in, is it preffered to doublepost or is it preferable to add-edit previous posts?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 05:14:50 am by SaberToothTiger »
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I gaze into its milky depths, searching the wheat and sugar for the meanings I can never find.
It's like tea leaf divination, but with cartoon leprechauns.
There are only two sure things in life: death and taxes and lists and poor arithmetic and overlong jokes and poor memory and probably a few more things.

Chromatic Wasp

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2015, 06:53:39 am »

Chromatic Wasp:  How much forum mafia experience do you have?

I've never played forum-style Mafia, but I'm a huge Mafia fanatic. I've played and moderated live-action games plenty of times. Back in its early heyday, I spent more time on Town of Salem than I'm willing to admit, and I go on Epicmafia.com at least once a day. However, this format is new to me, but I think I can pick it up.

Time to find the Clone Lord.

Chromatic Wasp: Does this vote bother you?

Eh. From your POV, It could be me just as easily as anyone else. I don't blame you, but obviously, I'd be quick to tell you you're mistaken.

Chromatic Wasp You are given the choice to be town or scum. Which do you choose?

This is a tricky question. Being town means that you're playing defensive on two fronts; defensive from the killers, and defensive from the suspicions of your peers.

Being scum means you play both the offensive and the defensive, so one would assume the increased power would mean an advantage; but you have to craft your lies very carefully as scum, more so than as town, where you can just be honest most of the time.

Because of that, honestly, town is the "weaker" role, but it's also a lot lower pressure, especially when you consider the majority is on your side.

So, I'd have to pick town.


Chromatic Wasp (CW): How do you feel now that I'm not actually going to vote for you?

At the risk of stating the obvious? Relieved. I take it as a sign of trust, or, at the very least, mercy. And gosh darn it, that just makes me feel all Hallmark-y inside. Maybe we could be pals before one of us inevitably dies or turns against one another.

Added Note : Random.org = yikes.

Wasp: If you had a role that couldn't be converted into cult, how would you try to make use of it?

Well, I'd take the risk of outing. I'd townlead, gather information (specifically, role-claims and fos rankings), and make sure things went along in an organized fashion. I would then probably go mad from the power and try to invade Russia.

\\\\\

Before I begin questions, I'm going to apologize in advance because it's my finals week, so I'll make sure not to lurk, but my post density won't be up there with some of your guys'.

\\\\\

I believe in equal levels of interaction in group discussion, so I'll be sending questions to those who I haven't been questioned by. Don't want anyone to feel like they're ninth-wheeling this party.

tntey Hypothetical situation: You're a 3rd party in a standard Mafia game. There are two townies and two Mafia, and your wincon isn't affected by who you side with. Do you take the easy win and side with maf, or do you play nice and help the town?

filipk What kind of questions do you think a scum would ask D1 to dry and divert suspicion?

SaberTooth: How does self-defensive paranoia help the town's cause?
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Deus Asmoth

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2015, 07:20:45 am »

STT: editing posts is against the rules.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Mafia: A Game of Clones, Day 1.
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2015, 09:39:41 am »

That's true, but a carefully chosen RVS question can also provide information that could be applicable later.  For example, if a player was asked an RVS question about how he felt about townies lying and he responded that it was never a good idea, then it would be suspicious if this player acted counter to his own advice during one of the later days.
I questioned you because I thought the question that you asked was kind of suspicious, since it provides insight into how a player might use a power role, which is information that could benefit the cult leader and help him narrow down which players actually have one.

I think the best RVS questions are questions that can yield answers containing information that may be useful later in addition to a potential slip-up now.  For example, your question to hector13 about lynching active/inactive players did yield some useful information.  He said that he won't lynch players based on post count, so if for some reason he tries to do exactly that on one of the later ingame days, we could call him out on it.  I also expect that scum answers would be more..."adaptable", so that they can weasel themselves out of a tough spot later without blatantly contradicting earlier statements and actions.
Having said this, it is kind of tough to come up with good RVS questions.  I'm certainly no master at it.
Very nice. Until now, it hadn't even occurred to me that RVS questions could be more than just good conversation starters.
~~~

How would a more experienced player get more use out of one ability while you'd get more use out of the other? What do you define as experience?
The easier question here is "what do you define as experience", so I'll start with that.

Experience, in non-numerical terms, is the ability to not be nooby. "We should lynch him because I think he is scum." Nooby. Like so. (by the way, that's paraphrased from the first mafia game I played on these forums.)
But once you get past a certain point, noobyness is no longer a problem, and what experience really gets to means... thinking further ahead, thinking of better gambits, using your role more effectively...
If you define experience in a sport or a game of any sort, I'd say that the most common definition of experience would be "Someone with more experience does better at the game than someone with less."

Now, for the second question, "how would a more experienced player get more use out of one ability while you'd get more use out of the other", which as I stated above, is the harder question.
It just seems like truth to me, like "the sky is blue", or "the cosine of 60 degrees is 1/2".

Okay. See, like I said earlier, hitting the cult leader with a 1-shot kill is a matter of luck and analysis. And someone with more experience is likely better at analysis than someone with less.

I'd have less chance of using the 1-shot kill to its best effect, so I'd prefer to have something which can be used repeatedly.
~~~

Do you think that RVS questions asked by the cult leader would be any different than RVS questions asked by normal townies?  Do you think the CL's questions would have an ulterior motive or primarily just be asked for the purpose of blending in?
If the cult leader was significantly experienced, then they would most likely be very similar or the same, on average, to an RVS question asked by a normal townie, barring slip ups. If less experienced, then there would most likely be differences.
Considering that role fishing would be of most benefit to the cult leader, and that's rather likely to be picked up on... for a scum role of any sort, their ulterior(gosh, that's a word you don't see every day) motive is going to be rather different than a townie when asking RVS questions, if they have one. If they have even a game of mafia experience, the blending in will be most likely.
Of course, with enough experience and skill, a cult leader could potentially ask RVS questions that look like town questions but can actually benefit him.
~~~

FallacyOfUrist: It would all depend on the player's previous actions. And why would he send me that message out of all other possible recipients?
Gragh, there's a reason we use quote tags to provide context. Thankfully, I remember which question I sent to you. And you have to figure out the reason he sent you the message yourself.
Or not.
~~~

I am paranoid about being lynched day one, as I consider it a lottery. As in, you lose most of the time.
If it's a lottery, it's a biased one- and it's possible to bias it enough... if the mafia(or cult leader) is obvious enough, you should try to bash the lynch into them as much as possible. See Urist McCoder in my first beginner's mafia.
~~~

Those without activity: please hurry up and post.

Everybody else:
Megggas: I decided to start playing mafia because it might be fun and enlightening. Why did you? Why are you trying to put attention onto me?

SaberTooth: the implication being that you don't want attention on yourself. Why not, brah?
I'd like to pull this to everybody's mind. For obvious reasons.

SaberToothTiger? A nice response to this would be nice. Pressure vote on.
~~~
Wow. I never imagined I'd be able to make such gigantic posts when I started playing Mafia...

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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.
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