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Author Topic: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?  (Read 3675 times)

sluissa

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 10:20:59 am »

Sega is notorious for this with their various consoles and cartridges that stacked.

N64 had the memory pak.

Gamecube had an add on modem.

PS2 had an add on network adapter and optional hard drive.

There's a consistent theme here that all of these things, while substantially upgrading the system they were with, were pricey and the number of games that took advantage of said upgrades were very limited.

I think the gamecube modem was only good for phantasy star. The PS2 hard drive was only good for final fantasy 11, although the ps2 modem got a little more love with FF11, Socom, Metal Gear Solid 3 Online and possibly a few others.

One of the reasons it wasn't done before these though was that so much of the game's hardware was actually on the game cartridge itself, you could upgrade a console by actually adding upgrades into the game cartridge. The FX chip was a famous example in the SNES used for early 3d games like Starfox. But this also caused the cartridges to be notoriously expensive to produce and sell.
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sluissa

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2015, 11:12:54 am »

The slot was there from the beginning, though. They'd always planned on it being expandable. There was no "accident" about it.
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Starver

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2015, 02:25:22 pm »

-snip-
and current-gen consoles still can't run games at the same rate as current good gaming computers :v
The caveat being that these days it seems that the final port of a game is the PC port (sometimes with problems), even after cross-platform porting between opposing console manufacturers, and then ends up often the worst-looking during the squishing process, whereas a decade or two back the trend used to be the other way.

(The PC always had the advantage, in the early days, of better screen definition than with TVs (related), and it seems that they spend effort trying to get the visuals 'soft', for modern digital displays, just like analogue households TVs used to.)

I can see why they do it (from both technical and business sense).  But I was personally never going to buy a console to play Grand Theft Auto (whatever generation/variant it was) rather than wait for the PC version, just because it came out the 'wrong way round'.
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Antioch

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2015, 04:25:06 pm »

Well, Nintendo had the Expansion Pak because they accidentally put way too little RAM in the thing; Donkey Kong 64 needed more, so they had to sell it with the Pak.

hahaha, funny story: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/05/donkey_kong_64_required_expansion_pak_to_prevent_game_breaking_bug
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MorleyDev

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2015, 04:32:01 pm »

Also, let's be honest: The vast majority of PC owners do not upgrade the individual hardware, they just go and buy a new PC. Most people don't own desktops any more, they use laptops. Everyone I know with a desktop is either a gamer or has a professional use-case (Programmers, Musicians who do their own mixing, Graphical Designers, that kind of thing).

Having to track and upgrade individual parts is a niche desire, one I definitely have but still a niche one. Most people just want to use exactly enough brain power to go "This one has a bigger number, so it'll do better computar stuffs".
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scriver

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2015, 05:12:17 pm »

That's me. I have no idea what any kind of things are for my computations. Higher looks better though.
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Frumple

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2015, 05:17:03 pm »

There's days I wonder if people even know how to compare GPUs, anymore. I definitely don't, and they seem to have stopped using anything descriptive in the hardware names years ago. CPUs've kinda' been having the same problem, too. Just tell me it's a 3 ghz piece, damnit, not some weird name/model number BS. Even getting kinda' rough with hard drives and ram and junk. I distinctly remember it being easier to figure out what to upgrade to, a decade (or two) ago...
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i2amroy

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2015, 05:48:38 pm »

But as for why, besides the obvious money-grubbing reasons, chances are that if devs not only had to program for an underpowered machine but and underpowered machine with multiple hardware configurations, they just wouldn't bother.
Of course if you factor on a "per cost" for certain types of GPU-based stuff the consoles actually get more power than many other things per the dollar, since companies usually sell consoles at a loss and then make the money back on games. There's a reason why the military fairly regularly buys up vast shipments of the latest console to come out; it's cheaper for them to buy a bunch of consoles and wipe them for power than it is for them to actually build normal devices to do the same tasks. :P
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Aklyon

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2015, 06:06:46 pm »

But as for why, besides the obvious money-grubbing reasons, chances are that if devs not only had to program for an underpowered machine but and underpowered machine with multiple hardware configurations, they just wouldn't bother.
Of course if you factor on a "per cost" for certain types of GPU-based stuff the consoles actually get more power than many other things per the dollar, since companies usually sell consoles at a loss and then make the money back on games. There's a reason why the military fairly regularly buys up vast shipments of the latest console to come out; it's cheaper for them to buy a bunch of consoles and wipe them for power than it is for them to actually build normal devices to do the same tasks. :P
Didn't they have some issue with the ps3 due to whatever processor it used, or am I remembering it wrong?
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Graknorke

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2015, 06:20:30 pm »

But as for why, besides the obvious money-grubbing reasons, chances are that if devs not only had to program for an underpowered machine but and underpowered machine with multiple hardware configurations, they just wouldn't bother.
Of course if you factor on a "per cost" for certain types of GPU-based stuff the consoles actually get more power than many other things per the dollar, since companies usually sell consoles at a loss and then make the money back on games. There's a reason why the military fairly regularly buys up vast shipments of the latest console to come out; it's cheaper for them to buy a bunch of consoles and wipe them for power than it is for them to actually build normal devices to do the same tasks. :P
Well they probably get it cheaper to buy the exact same hardware, but chances are that you could buy an equivalent for cheaper, since console manufacturers' hardware choices are based off all kinds of eldrich legal fuckery and what they can haggle down to cheapest and so on.
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Reelya

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2015, 06:59:13 pm »

Here's the deal:
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/09/military-purchases-2200-ps3s/

The miltary was buying bulk PS3's @ $299 each because each one did 150 GFLOPS, and to buy a single 3.2 GHz cell processor which can do 200 GFLOPS cost almost 10 times as much as a PS3. Clearly, the PS3 is probably cheaper to make than the cell processors because it's a mass produced consumer item, but it's likely that Sony is marking down these devices not just a little bit, but by a huge margin, perhaps wearing 2/3rds of the cost themselves.

This is also the most likely reason Sony changed the firmware to prevent Linux running on them, since the bulk buyers were running them as clusters with Linux distros on them. It also suggests a strategy to bankrupt your console competition: reverse-engineer cluster support onto a rival's console then leak that code out there for free, and ensure your console is just slightly less attractive to the cluster people than the competitions one. Or, buy up the rival's console in bulk then use those for data-processing in your own data centers ;D
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 07:06:56 pm by Reelya »
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Aklyon

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2015, 07:05:09 pm »

Sony changed the firmware because of a hacker, not because of the military using their console as a server cluster. Then claimed removing the feature would improve access to psn features.
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Crystalline (SG)
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It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.

Starver

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2015, 10:34:33 pm »

Also, let's be honest: The vast majority of PC owners do not upgrade the individual hardware, they just go and buy a new PC. Most people don't own desktops any more, they use laptops. Everyone I know with a desktop is either a gamer or has a professional use-case (Programmers, Musicians who do their own mixing, Graphical Designers, that kind of thing).

Having to track and upgrade individual parts is a niche desire, one I definitely have but still a niche one. Most people just want to use exactly enough brain power to go "This one has a bigger number, so it'll do better computar stuffs".
Much apart from whether anyone would upgrade their PC (or laptop... to the more limited degree that relates to them), I would personally never suggest anyone would get a laptop unless they will want to use it in an actual mobile situation.  Apart from upgrading opportunities (which, as you point out, is well down the list of most people... at least at first), you don't get as good a value in terms of speed/capacity/etc.  2.5" HDDs cost more than their 3.5" equivalents, for the same size.  The limitations of cooling mean that a laptop equivalent of a desktop CPU/GPU is in a more expensive package for the same cores*clock value (if you can even match it).  A larger laptop screen makes the package disproportionately more expensive compared to an equivalent desktop screen (assuming you don't buy a separate one anyway, for use when 'docked').

I speak as someone who has sold computers (new and recycled) to people.  Everyone wants a laptop, which I'm happy enough to sell if they really want them, but if I enquire as to their motive it usually turns out to be some belief that they are getting better hardware.  (Occasionally it's so that they can tuck the machine away behind the easy-chair when not in use, rather than set up a dedicated computer station.  A good SFF case and (these days) a light and thin LCD monitor can just as easily tuck away behind/beside the chair they're always going to use their machine from, though.

About the only 'plus' to a laptop is that all but the lowest-spec recycled ones have integrated Wifi, while most desktops need a Wifi dongle or card inserting, accordingly.  (Although I also suggest that it's better if you can wire your machine, laptop or otherwise, to the router.  Better speeds, more reliable, less susceptible to signal drop through a wall, one less thing to worry about regarding security, easier to trouble-shoot when it inevitably goes wrong, etc... but of course relies on being able to lay a cable between the two is necessary, which might be impractical if both ends aren't in convenient proximity and/or you don't own enough of the house to drill a hole in the wall/floor/ceiling.)

Still, The Customer Is Always Right.  (After checking that The Customer Realises What It Is They're Being Right About, of course.)  And I'm a stick-in-the-mud, myself, but I've only given people my opinions (where appropriate), not forced something on them that they don't want.


...but I fear I'm getting off-topic.
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Aklyon

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2015, 01:17:55 am »

nono, quite on topic. And also on laptops: Batteries. If you try to use the laptop as a desktop, or just use it often enough, eventually you will need a replacement battery. Replacement laptop batteries are expensive and a pain in the butt to find specifically if you want a deal instead of whatever price tag is set on it on their site.
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Crystalline (SG)
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It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.

Jay

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Re: Why Has No One Modularized Consoles?
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2015, 10:05:57 pm »

There's days I wonder if people even know how to compare GPUs, anymore. I definitely don't, and they seem to have stopped using anything descriptive in the hardware names years ago. CPUs've kinda' been having the same problem, too. Just tell me it's a 3 ghz piece, damnit, not some weird name/model number BS. Even getting kinda' rough with hard drives and ram and junk. I distinctly remember it being easier to figure out what to upgrade to, a decade (or two) ago...
The layman still doesn't really have to care about HDD seek times, or RAM timings and all that stuff. Capacity and RPMs, the two advertised numbers, will still suit just fine for a basic HDD comparison. Likewise with RAM frequency and capacity.

CPUs do have a bit of newish extra baggage, because gigahertz became wildly useless as a benchmark when we started realizing that raw speed wasn't really the bottleneck (That was around a decade ago itself, though, with Smithdale/Presler).
3 GHz on a Sandy Bridge core isn't 3 GHz on a Haswell core isn't 3 GHz on a Skylake core.
3 GHz on your top of the line AMD series isn't 3 GHz on your top of the line Intel series.

The numbers that used to be advertised for GPUs, their RAM amount, also became useless as a performance indicator a decade ago, so, yes, they've mostly just stopped bothering.
They're basically just a smaller computer within your computer anymore, and are outright impossible to compare by any single number. And there are, then, so many different factors, that there's simply not an easy "this is the best one" without benchmarking and getting proper performance data. Even then, some can do better in certain situations but worse in others, leaving you with a decision based on your usage case.

And you're not gonna see them start advertising by raw performance data. Nobody in their right mind would outright say their product is inferior to their competitor's.

tl;dr: You can't pick the best component out of a crowd just by a quick glance at an advertised number, and there's not actually anything new about that.
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