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Author Topic: Breaching the Aquifer  (Read 1900 times)

Quasar_42

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Breaching the Aquifer
« on: October 29, 2015, 11:54:50 pm »

Thought I'd exchange my story for a little assistance.

I haven't played in a while, decided to start up a new fortress a few days ago. I started with a pretty standard embark, fairly friendly environment, then ran into the aquifer while digging down. I knew it was there on embark, and assumed I could deal with it.

I was wrong.

I gave up on figuring out the double slit method, and switched to collapsing the cavern into the aquifer. This got my miner killed, and subsequent screwups fouled up that avenue. I dug another pit out, hoping to allow it to fill with water that would freeze, and then dig that out, building a wall to hold the water back in the spring, but neglected the fact that water freezes very fast and lost two more miners.

After waiting a long time for them to thaw and failing to retrieve anything from their corpses, I ended up pressing someone else into service, who promptly triggered about three cave-ins, killing an unfortunate cheesemaker and eventually him as well.

Finally, I tried digging another pit. This plan was going great (aside from another miner drowning, that is) until I realized that mining the ice out of the aquifer apparently didn't work. Enter a third frozen miner. *Sigh*

My five picks are all frozen, and I'm living off wood crafts. Food and booze supplies are good. Open to suggestions on where to take this.
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omega_dwarf

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2015, 12:49:28 am »

Pumps are your friend. Winter may not be.

Pumps can be man-power-driven. Parts can be made out of wood (I think.) Make sure to have the pumps drain back into another tile of aquifer, or you'll flood yourself out and probably throw your remaining dwarves into the drink.

If you have to, make do in log cabins until the caravans come, then buy what you need (preferably raw materials like stone) from them and sell anything you need to. I've never successfully used any method but the pump method. It's easy to understand and scaleable, where the collapse method generally isn't (it's limited by how many soil layers you have above the aquifer, so if it's too deep, you're done.)

Never tried double slit.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2015, 02:40:56 am »

A screw pump consists of a screw, a pipe, and a block, all of which can be made out of wood (If all pieces are wooden, a carpenter is needed to take over after the architect stage of assembly, otherwise it's a mason).
I'd recommend reading the wiki on the double-slit method, re-reading it, and then keep the page open while following it step by step, reading and re-reading each step as you go (that's how I learned it, anyway).
There are two crucial non obvious insights required to understand the method:
- Aquifer tiles do NOT leak diagonally, while dug out ones do.
- An isolated aquifer tile provides unlimited amounts of water and can absorb unlimited amounts of water.

Now, the double-slit method requires a miner, which means you need to recover at least one pick, and it also requires one dorf operating the pump while the other one is working, so you need at least two dorfs.
I'd start with the production of one or two screw pumps to try to recover at least one pick, and I'd read the screw pump description on the wiki carefully to grasp the working of it.

As omega_dwarf said, screw pumps cause a mess with the water pumped up, and if it isn't contained it can sweep the pumper off the pump into the water. The best way is to have the screw pump output directly over a tile open into the aquifer, since that's an infinite water sink. That's not enough, however, since water will flow out to the sides anyway, unless the flow is restricted by walls (the pump provides one wall by itself).
You'll probably have some trouble recovering drowned dwarves equipment, because even if they are located on a slope where the pump can remove the water, the pumping can easily move the stuff around.
With two pumps beside each other you can pump away the water to allow a dwarf to work while the second pump removes the water on that tile to allow the working dwarf to work on that tile (typically to make a wall). For building a wall segment this way, check the double-slit wiki page, since it describes the interruption logic.
Since you seem to already have a number of holes in the aquifer, you may want to try to build a wall around the edge of a hole by adding wall tiles along the edge, one at a time, and then pump out the water in the middle (that could both create an aquifer penetration AND allow you to recover picks and bodies).

If the aquifer is deeper than one level you have an additional tool at your disposal in the form of a deeper level water sink and additional complications in the form of an additional level to penetrate.
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Sanctume

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2015, 12:52:28 pm »

Double slit method is ok - DFWanderingKid has a vid in YT that I like.

But ever since I learned the pump stack method, breaching even 7+ aquifer layers quite doable. 

The first 2 pumps prime the waterwheels for the water reactor, and pumps empty where you want to breach. 
But you will need stone for a few mechanisms to use as gears.
And finish with a hatch and dig to drainage

Code: [Select]
..........
...v%%GGxv
.vWW%%vxxv
.vooG.xxxx
.vWW......
..........


###########
###7##^%%v#
#777##^%%v#
#777##xxxx#
#777#######
###########

omega_dwarf

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2015, 02:10:56 pm »

A screw pump consists of a screw, a pipe, and a block, all of which can be made out of wood (If all pieces are wooden, a carpenter is needed to take over after the architect stage of assembly, otherwise it's a mason).
I'd recommend reading the wiki on the double-slit method, re-reading it, and then keep the page open while following it step by step, reading and re-reading each step as you go (that's how I learned it, anyway).
There are two crucial non obvious insights required to understand the method:
- Aquifer tiles do NOT leak diagonally, while dug out ones do.
- An isolated aquifer tile provides unlimited amounts of water and can absorb unlimited amounts of water.

Now, the double-slit method requires a miner, which means you need to recover at least one pick, and it also requires one dorf operating the pump while the other one is working, so you need at least two dorfs.
I'd start with the production of one or two screw pumps to try to recover at least one pick, and I'd read the screw pump description on the wiki carefully to grasp the working of it.

As omega_dwarf said, screw pumps cause a mess with the water pumped up, and if it isn't contained it can sweep the pumper off the pump into the water. The best way is to have the screw pump output directly over a tile open into the aquifer, since that's an infinite water sink. That's not enough, however, since water will flow out to the sides anyway, unless the flow is restricted by walls (the pump provides one wall by itself).
You'll probably have some trouble recovering drowned dwarves equipment, because even if they are located on a slope where the pump can remove the water, the pumping can easily move the stuff around.
With two pumps beside each other you can pump away the water to allow a dwarf to work while the second pump removes the water on that tile to allow the working dwarf to work on that tile (typically to make a wall). For building a wall segment this way, check the double-slit wiki page, since it describes the interruption logic.
Since you seem to already have a number of holes in the aquifer, you may want to try to build a wall around the edge of a hole by adding wall tiles along the edge, one at a time, and then pump out the water in the middle (that could both create an aquifer penetration AND allow you to recover picks and bodies).

If the aquifer is deeper than one level you have an additional tool at your disposal in the form of a deeper level water sink and additional complications in the form of an additional level to penetrate.

Oh, is that the double-slit method? Because that's exactly what I do :P A second level of aquifer always sucks, though. I end up having to dig successively larger inverted pyramids to get through it.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2015, 03:33:07 pm »

No digging a pyramid is not the double-slit method. I mentioned the double-slit as the primary method and the more primitive one as a stuff-up/pick recovery
 one (and if there's more aquifer below I'd probably use the double-slit at the bottom anyway).

The method is described on the wiki, but it consists of two slits two tiles high (in the X/Y plane, not vertical) with two tiles in between so you can fit a screw pump between the slits. You pump the water out of each of the 4 holes one at a time, and dig out a segment of the wall at a time to replace it with a wall (to stop the wall from leaking). Once you've taken care of one hole you flip the pump and take the other one, and then move to the other hole pair. The method results in a vertical 2*4 opening of arbitrary depth (I've made a small modification to get a 3*4 opening for caravan access, but then you can only handle 3 or 4 levels of aquifer (since caravans need ramps). You can do a 4 * X version for a deeper caravan access).

I'd recommend taking a look at the double-slit method since it's rather handy, but it's very easy to screw up the crucial lowest level 3:rd corner if the brain's on repeat.
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Snaake

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2015, 11:06:12 am »

Pumps are your friend. Winter may not be.

Pumps can be man-power-driven. Parts can be made out of wood (I think.) Make sure to have the pumps drain back into another tile of aquifer, or you'll flood yourself out and probably throw your remaining dwarves into the drink.

If you have to, make do in log cabins until the caravans come, then buy what you need (preferably raw materials like stone) from them and sell anything you need to. I've never successfully used any method but the pump method. It's easy to understand and scaleable, where the collapse method generally isn't (it's limited by how many soil layers you have above the aquifer, so if it's too deep, you're done.)

Never tried double slit.

Pumps can be your friend, but learning how to pierce aquifers using just cave-ins will serve you better, you won't need to use all your wagon wood on a pump (or bring extra) or man it. In my experience a cave-in is also far quicker in play, and requires less micromanaging. Pumps should only be necessary if the aquifer is immediately below the surface, no dry soil levels at all, which I think is only possible in swamps, if even then, and even then only rarely.

For a 1-2 thick aquifer, 1-2 layers of dry soil are required, or 3 if the aquifer is only 1 thick and you want to do the whole thing underground, and not under the open sky. For a basic open-sky pierce of an aquifer that's just 1z thick, you need 2 layers of dry soil: the pictures on the wiki at http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Aquifer#Cave-In_Example are ok, although it has an extra, unnecessary dry soil layer above the aquifer (one of the brown ones). You can also avoid constructing the floor tiles in the last phase if you do the dig slightly differently. 2z of dry soil is preferable, since it lets you do the entire thing underground. Concentric ring cave-ins of thicker aquifers do require more levels of dry soil, however...

The "Single-pick challenge - Reawakened" thread included some aquifer pierce cave-in science. They were nearly alway done completely underground to be safe from aboveground undead wildlife and evil weather, and true to the name of the thread, people didn't bring any supplies beyond the 2 draft animals and 3 wood included with the wagon + a single pick. You would want to save the wood to be able to build a wall to block out even flyer access to your bunker, and to build workshops, so pumps were not reasonable, or even possible options. The science and explanations of the methods, complete with screenshots, start at around reply #173: at first people still thought in terms of concentric rings or using pumps, but by the time the aquifer pierce discussion petered out at reply #218ish or thereabouts, we'd figured out a way to pierce a 2-thick aquifer using only 2 layers of soil (similarly to before, just 1 would be enough if you didn't need the surface floor to act as a roof against wildlife&weather), without using any wood, all before the dwarves even get hungry (they can drink out of the aquifer and sleep on the soil floor)... and speculated on methods to have two alternating sites to repeat this method at, allowing piercing of arbitrarily thick aquifers, at least in soil. I don't think that theory has been tested, but if it works, 3+ thick aquifers may be piercable with just 1z of dry soil as well; if there's an upper limit, it would be starvation, and draft animal meat stews stave that off for quite a while. I'm not sure if testing 3+ thick aquifer pierces is that easy, mainly due to them not being nearly as common as 1-2 thick ones.

I keep telling myself (and others, in posts like this) that I really should write up the methods in that thread on the wiki. Although to be honest I'd like to repeat the tests for them on DF2015/2016 if it's delayed until then, or at least 0.40 before I do so (the experiments were done with 0.34)... and a good starting point would probably be to first add a minimalist version of the example already provided. Then a similar visual example of the concentric rings, then the methods from the thread... One of these days!


Regarding your current situation: Build a wooden palisade with optional moat and/or possibly cabins to live in until the caravans, or since you do seem to have dry soil, dig into the soil layers for rooms safe from the biting cold outside. Trade for stone and weapons-grade metals/ores. Brave the aquifer once more to gain access to stone, ores, caverns and magma.


edit: I made the picture series for the minimalist version of the example already provided, although I did add some Surface Fun to demonstrate why you might want to do the whole thing underground. It's getting late though, and I don't remember my DF wiki password, so I'll post it there tomorrow, hopefully. I also want to do a bit of arranging/cleanup on the aquifer article while I'm at it, and then the concentric rings should probably get a picture series too.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 04:34:22 pm by Snaake »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2015, 05:32:01 pm »

Sorry for being dense, but I tried to follow the thread referenced (all the way from #173 up to 218, but mainly basing it on #192), but I fail to understand how the lower aquifer level is plugged. It looked to me as a chicken run was done down into layer 2 to create a drain, but when the cave-in is performed I fail to see how what looks like a single block with a single tile hole in the middle would continue down into the second aquifer level to plug it. Do soil cave-ins behave differently from rock ones so the whole block isn't suspended on the first support it hits, but breaks apart and continue down in the areas not supported from below?

Edit: Tried it out, and the answer to my question is yes, soil breaks up, and thus plugs the lower aquifer.

I also tried out a chicken run thrice (save scumming), and it failed totally in all cases (25 year old fortress, so my miners are definitely skilled). On the third attempt a miner managed to pick up the job (as reported by the jobs screen) just before the water depth passed 3/7, while in the two first ones they didn't even achieve that. The third attempt used a burrows to keep the miners close to the site, and both the upper and the lower staircase jobs were given a priority of 1. Thus, I'd say using chicken runs to create a drain no longer works.

I think you rather have to use a modified double-slit screw pump based approach where you use a pump to allow you to pierce into the lower aquifer.
If the aquifer is two deep, you just do the cave in, pump out the water, and continue down.

If the aquifer is deeper than 2, you have to channel out an area of the second aquifer layer large enough to operate a regular double-slit, and probably two (or even more) of those. If the third aquifer level is made up of rock (I'm not sure if you can have more than two levels of soil aquifer, but if so, you're probably screwed if you can't engineer an additional cave-in somehow) two areas ought to allow access to enough mining area to provide you with stone for blocks to allow you to plug the walls using the double-slit method, and you'd then proceed downwards that way, which means the penetration depth is limited by your food supply and luck with rock mining (I don't know the average boulder yield from mining. You dig out 16 tiles per level, plug those, and recover the 4 blocks in the middle as you proceed to the next one, so if you get 3 boulders out of 16 tiles you break even on average).

Of course, there may be better ways of doing it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 05:39:39 am by PatrikLundell »
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Snaake

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 11:55:17 am »

Just as a quick reply:

  • The best posts to look at are #205 and #206 (they don't have the central hole)
  • the single tile in the middle being hollowed out is unnecessary, it was used by one guy, not a huge problem to have but it does mean you'll need a bucket to empty it out. Can't remember what their reason for adding that was.
  • See #205-206, I don't think there's anything else except open floor and ramps on the (flooded) bottom aquifer layer pre-drop in those? So the plug doesn't hit any supports on its way down.
  • With regards to failing the 2-z chicken runs: yes, that's why I want to test it in a newer version. I vaguely recall someone mentioning that chicken-runnin would be much more difficult or even impossible in 0.40 and on, but I don't have any experience myself. Incidentally, if that's true, all the classic chicken run methods already on the wiki would also fail.
  • ...In which case my go-to method for a 2-thick aquifer pierce would probably still be a concentric cave-in if possible (enough soil), or if not, handle the top layer with a basic cave-in, and then use the hatch trick for the 2nd.
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taptap

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2015, 12:33:15 pm »

"For a 1-2 thick aquifer, 1-2 layers of dry soil are required, ..."

I once had dry soil (clay in my case) transmutate to sand when dropped. I completely gave up on piercing aquifers with cave-ins back then. Was the game changed since I experienced that (34.x)? Or did you drop rock?

PatrikLundell

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2015, 01:14:48 pm »

I've seen is mentioned somewhere (possibly even above...) that there is a bug regarding dropped clay that can/will (I'm not sure which) transmute into the target area material and become aquiferic. I dropped non aquiferic sand into aquiferic sand (which shouldn't work using conventional logic, but this is DF). The sand DID transmute into the three target types of sand, but I don't think this transformation results in an aquifer (black sand became yellow sand, loamy sand, and sandy clay loam. The yellow sand is sort of a beneficial mistake on top of staircases that should allow me to re-dig removed staircases, if desired). I haven't actually tested that the drop actually plug the aquifer, however, since I was just testing the drop method and then plugged the access. The fortress is on hold, however, so I could open the area up and pump out the water to test.

Edit:
There is a leak somewhere into my upper level aquifer hole (I knew there was, since it reached into the spash reception area, but I bricked up one of the tiles and obsidianized the other without stopping the leak), but I think that's more a result of my on the fly change of the method to use a screw pump and thus get too close to the edge of the area (If planned, the double slitty patches would be centered, not have one end at the center). I've just channeled a single tile hole elsewhere in the dropped upper aquifer sand, and that only has the 1/7 depth of water resulting from digging at a wet spot, with no sign of filling in from the sides. Given that the method has been tested by a bunch of dedicated people before, I would guess the clay bug affects clay only.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 02:01:45 pm by PatrikLundell »
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Snaake

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2015, 01:46:21 pm »

"For a 1-2 thick aquifer, 1-2 layers of dry soil are required, ..."

I once had dry soil (clay in my case) transmutate to sand when dropped. I completely gave up on piercing aquifers with cave-ins back then. Was the game changed since I experienced that (34.x)? Or did you drop rock?

I would view clay transmuting into sand as a bonus, actually, since then I'd have materials for both glass and pottery. The tests I did were with dropping soil.

Where you might have a problem is if the dropped plug *also* changes to have an aquifer (I was going to say-aquifer-bearing, but that could be confused to mean soil/stobe types that have the *potential* to be aquifer-bearing). My understanding is that currently transmutation does happen sometimes, or at least did in 0.34, but that it's a bug and unintended. I haven't heard of transmutation of a plug to be included in the aquifer, but I suspect that unlike the previous,  this might eventually be desired/realistic behaviour, if the dropped soil is capable of supporting an aquifer.

However, if we start talking about realism, it should really be possible to e.g. channel out an aquifer tile and then hammer in at least wooden log walls into the 7/7 water from the z-level above. Or collapse built walls to form dams etc. Currently you can only do anything like that by casting obsidian.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2015, 03:08:37 pm »

I think realism went out the door with infinite source/sink aquifer tiles  ;)

As indicated, I did get transmutation of one type of sand into 3 different kinds of soil, but the top aquifer one, at least, was not supporting the aquifer. If of sufficient interest I could start up the save and plug the leak(s) in the top one to check the bottom one.
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Snaake

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2015, 05:15:49 pm »

I think realism went out the door with infinite source/sink aquifer tiles  ;)

As indicated, I did get transmutation of one type of sand into 3 different kinds of soil, but the top aquifer one, at least, was not supporting the aquifer. If of sufficient interest I could start up the save and plug the leak(s) in the top one to check the bottom one.

I doubt it's worth the effort just to test this, but if you're going to be playing that save anyway, why not?

Infinite source/sink aquifer tiles aren't necessarily unrealistic if you consider them as an approximation, after all the play are is fairly small, and water tavle levels don't change very fast. The source/sink speed is rather high, though.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Breaching the Aquifer
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2015, 03:34:14 am »

I don't have any current plans to continue that save, since I've run out of things to do (the circus is completely secured, and I don't see any point in draining or otherwise securing the magma sea).

I could agree regarding aquifer realism if the aquifer source/sink would be required to have and unbroken "support" chain to the edge of the embark to remain an aquifer, so it's the infinite source/sink of isolated tiles that is the issue. A single tile shouldn't be able to hold more than tile's worth of water (i.e. 7/7) without a supply/drain. That said, realism isn't necessarily the most interesting option play wise.
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