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Author Topic: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...  (Read 943661 times)

Empiricist

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12990 on: March 24, 2016, 02:14:05 am »

Issue is, Tank-Cannon Alanis wouldn't have anything Shirogane doesn't have, it's just be a Perk that just so happens to synergize well with another one of their Perks, not too easy to make an argument against it. Hell, she'd only need to swap one stat (RES for SYN, assuming she restated to shift Glass Cannon Mode's RES into CON) just like Shirogane so not even limiting stat swap will stop it. Well, unless you made Shiro also use SYN instead of STR.

Apparently, Tank-Cannon Alanis is now the Bogeyman that hides under the bed of the GMs :P

It is inevitable.

It is terrifying.
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IamanElfCollaborator

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12991 on: March 24, 2016, 02:15:03 am »

Unless we outright veto it because fuck Alanis has too much utility.

She's currently the human version of a Swiss army knife. >_>

Empiricist

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12992 on: March 24, 2016, 02:17:37 am »

She's currently the human version of a Swiss army knife. >_>
And that isn't even good for her, seeing as Support Tank Alanis with her Kinetic Shell Fetish Specialization would probably fare better overall :P
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Sanure

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12993 on: March 24, 2016, 02:29:49 am »

*shivers at Alanis boogeyman mode* Let's not. I'll nope that so quickly and so hard...
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Empiricist

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12994 on: March 24, 2016, 02:35:06 am »

Well, if I ever rejoin this or make another character for E:G, it'll just be a mass of rejected ideas and what-ifs, including Tank-Cannon Alanis sealed within a moving hellmouth or something :P
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Twinwolf

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12995 on: March 24, 2016, 05:20:45 am »

Again, in my opinion having the dual forms is at least a bit broken. Victoria, Mio, and other such characters who transform to fight are different because, for combat purposes, only have one form. Debuff or no, you basically have two characters.
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IamanElfCollaborator

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12996 on: March 24, 2016, 05:56:43 am »

Made some edits to Penelope's sheet, as I forgot she had one more slot for skills, from comparing her to Mio's sheet.

Twinwolf

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12997 on: March 24, 2016, 05:59:55 am »

Just noticed, Penelope also has three perks when she should have four.
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Empiricist

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] The Flaws We Must Face
« Reply #12998 on: March 24, 2016, 06:08:24 am »

If Emp could look at Sandra and recommend how to spend levels I'd be pleased.
Spoiler: Sandra Is Confusing (click to show/hide)

ITE could prooobably use a look. I say, knowing you'll eviscerate it.

She hasn't used at least one of her perks even once. :V

General Feedback
Okay, so, I've been seeing the same issues in a good proportion of everyone's sheets. So, this is about improving them so that characters start being more useful, and hopefully making the game a bit more fun.

Lack Of Player Communication
I see shitposting. I see shipping. I see whining. I do not see any actual communication.

This is by far the worst issue. People don't talk to each other about what they're doing, what they want their character to do, how they want them to develop, or anything like that. They don't rarely give any opinions about a character, and often it's only complaints about being overpowered. Half of what I've posted here in the past week should have even been necessary if everyone just took more of an interest in each other's characters as actual combatants rather than as just shipping partners.

This is the root from which many of all the other problems stem from.

The worst part is, short of offering everyone a restat, there is no way to fully fix this anymore. The damage has been done. You should have made your first characters together, known what role everyone fits into, what they could do, what they could benefit from. At the very least, you should have discussed and ensured that there's a far greater distribution of Status Effects at the party's disposal than just Stun! Yes, making a foe miss a turn is great! But guess what? Not everything is vulnerable to it! A good chunk of bosses will be at least immune to it! And no, if you're Freezing a foe, or making them fall Asleep and miss their turn, that is still mechanically the same as Stun.

What we still do now, is at least ensure that everyone grows well, fit into some sort of useful role, and don't become underpowered. If someone spends Action Points or a Perk slot, look over it! It would save an enormous amount of hassle for Elf and Sanure if other people also gave their opinions and analysis of other people's Level Ups. Because at the end of the day, you are the one who benefits it. Right now, most of the Tanks don't actually take hits for others, they just survive, which is horrible because the actual Damage Dealers are basically left to fend for themselves. If your Glass Cannon has to invest three Perk slots into survival rather than damage, then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. We don't even have dedicated Buffers!

There's no coordination, no organization, nothing. Talk to each other. Talk to each other seriously. Not just about shipping or mechanics, but about the actual character sheets and how to get the most out of them both now and with each following Level. Everyone will be better off because of it.

Crippling Generalization:
From what I can only presume to be a direct consequence of the above, generalization has become quite the issue. Each character ought to have a specific role in mind. They need to be specialized, because that is what makes them strong, that is what promotes teamwork, what makes you want to give a damn about everyone else's sheets.

Two Jacks of All Trades cannot hope to outperform a Tank and a Buffer.

Why? Because synergy. There is synergy in a specialized build. You can have your Perks and Actions build upon each other, become codependent, and from that, become powerful. If you generalize, all you'll have are some umbrella Perks and a disjoint series of Actions mostly unrelated to each other. Having Actions that do little to serve the rest weakens you, they are missed opportunities.

It is because of this that we don't even have any Proper Buffers. That is utterly insane, to think that we have all these varied characters and not a single dedicated Buffer. The Damage Dealers should not have to buff themselves. The Glass Cannons shouldn't need to shield themselves. But they do, because they've generalized and aren't any Proper Buffers.

Furthermore, it isn't just the character builds, their Actions themselves often become too general trying to do too much at the same time. Buffing or debuffing all stats sounds nice on paper, but you're spreading yourself too thin unless it's from some sort of supermode. Making your heavy hitter inflict a Status Effect also isn't always the best idea as it weakens the raw damage, when you could have just tried commissioning a Crafter to make a Weapon or a Bauble that gives a chance of inflicting it instead. I mean, don't me wrong, it can work out very nicely if you got Passive Actions and Perks backing up your intent to deal damage and inflict an ailment. Except you probably don't, because your character is too generalized.

You can still fix this. Firstly, the GMs have been pretty lenient on respeccing so far. Secondly, you can always just make future Actions and Perks strengthen connections between what you currently have, and gear them towards a specific purpose.

Redundancy:
Something I noticed among the Damage Dealers is the tendency to have multiple "hit harder" Actions. You only need two at most. A steady attack, like a RES-piercer, multi-hit combo or a damage boosted strike, something that works in most situations, see if you can't roll it up into your Basic Attack (maybe with the help of a boosting Passive) like with It That Embraces. A situational attack, something that is more powerful but which won't come up as often, something like a counterattack or something that requires specific circumstances or a Limit Break. Preferably if you do have both of these, Perks and Actions that power up one will also power up the other.

Damage Boosted Strikes, such as Godhand are if you want good general-purpose attacks. RES Piercers like Piercing Strike should still do decent damage normally, but shine against foes with tough defenses, consider pairing them up with a Passive or Equipment that weakens the target's defenses making them vulnerable to a followup. Multi-Hit Combos like Heroic Barrage are best used if your Perks, Passives or Equipment come with positive effects that may kick in when hitting or attacking (like inflicting Status Ailments) and work best against foes with less RES as you'll be hitting with reduced power against their full RES each time.

Offensive Bias:
Everyone seems to want to be a deal damage one way or another. That's probably why we have a shortage of proper Buffers, Tanks, and Healers. Killing seems to be glorified. You don't see Motya getting a theme override and a detailed description for when she heals someone, but we see plenty of that for whoever lands the final blow. I suppose buffing others, or taking hits for them, just practicing medicine isn't as glamorous, but they're still vital. And people seem to realize that seeing as they do say they need more medics and whatnot. Issue is, few seem to be willing to actually play that part.

Oh no, they want to person with enormous sword or the fire that can boil away oceans. Not the best idea, unless you like the thought of not hitting as hard with your blade due to having really weak buffs, and using all your immense arcane power to try not to die because too few people draw aggro and only one of them (an NPC no less) has any way to protect others against one of those "hit everything" attacks. The world's most powerful cannon is useless without the supply lines and infrastructure to back it up.

Complacency
And despite all this, you accept it all. You seem to realize that there's something wrong. I mean a few of you did mention the need for more dedicated Medics, the lack of dedicated Debuffers, some of you even asked for your sheets to be critiqued. You know that there should be more dedicated Medics, that there aren't any proper Debuffers, that your sheets might benefit from someone reviewing them. But that's all you do. And that's what's wrong.

Sl4cker and Sentient made reference to the possibility that crowding me with requests is just bleeding me dry. Well, it certainly isn't doing wonders for my free time I can tell you that. But don't any of your just stop and think, "Why is the person who has participated in only one battle and barely skimmed the threads, the one being asked?" why didn't anyone ask "Why are they asking for the opinion of an outsider, when the rest of us know the game better?", why not? All I do is skim through sheets, look at what Precedents they set, and try and figure out what the hell I'm looking at is meant to achieve.

You all have more spare time. You all have more experience. You should all be capable of doing a far better job than I at auditing this. But no one took the initiative.

If you had spoken to one another. If you had built your sheets together. If you took an interest in what your fellow players were doing, rather than gouging them with barbed remarks and infantile jokes. You could have made your characters specialized. Your could have had clear, distinct roles. Tanks that actually protect the Glass Cannons. Glass Cannons that actually focus on attacking. Actual Buffers and Debuffers. Healers in sufficient quantities. Synergy between one another. Synergy within each character. You would have had a nice spread of Status Effects, not just this mass of Stun that can't even stack assuming it can even hit. I wouldn't need to tell everyone to make Perks scale, or that their Actions are redundant. It would have all been fine.

Not perfect.

Never perfect.

But still playable. Still something resembling a proper party. A group that through teamwork and interdependence can overcome whatever obstacles stand in their way, rather than struggling against an overgrown tree-munching protozoa that wasn't even meant to be that hard.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 06:10:22 am by Empiricist »
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IamanElfCollaborator

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #12999 on: March 24, 2016, 06:12:19 am »

well
shit

Adragis

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #13000 on: March 24, 2016, 06:12:56 am »

Sandra is never going to use Butchery.
Or Fleshlance, save in emergencies.

She is not a combat character.
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thincake

BlitzDungeoneer

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #13001 on: March 24, 2016, 06:18:05 am »

Sandra is never going to use Butchery.
Or Fleshlance, save in emergencies.

She is not a combat character.
...then what's the point of giving them to her, when she could have support actions instead?
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IamanElfCollaborator

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #13002 on: March 24, 2016, 06:18:49 am »

Well, now I feel like I have to go redo Mio and Penelope's actions. >_>

Sl4cker

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #13003 on: March 24, 2016, 06:19:20 am »

I don't know if I should clap, call for a revolution, start throwing stones, or hang my head in shame.
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Sanure

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Re: Trespassers of the Multiverse: Gaiden [OOC] Compleation is a drop away...
« Reply #13004 on: March 24, 2016, 06:20:30 am »

I am all for people redoing their sheets, mind you. I even recommend it.

@Elf, I Might even redo Tourmaline's and possibly shiro's.
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"...I really don't know why Cu chulainn made that last promise because he is physically incapable of keeping it in his pants, it is like his junk is some kind of unruly seamonster or moray eel telescoping out of its holster and harpooning ladies left and right"
Johnny Jokotaru sent Kars down under
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