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Derp!

Derp!

Derp!

Derp!

[IamanElfCollaborator]

I'm not arguing anything about the bosses themselves or how they're statted, I'm arguing chargen issues.

We should know that x ability is too OP to work on any boss (see:Demi, which seems to have been noped on OOC grounds so far given that other magic has worked just fine) without having to test it on an actual boss first.

And I'm declaring that's unecessary, because single-unit (i.e. Trespasser, Libra and Pisces Vertexes) bosses are far more powerful and have more immunities thus far in general than the smaller ones (Bovus and Mus Vertexes). IC, explained by sheer power and eldritchness. OOC, necessity.

I shouldn't be having to ask people to tailor their skills to bosses or my bosses to skills because part of the point of a boss is that what it has is unknown to you until it starts lashing out and killing you as opposed to the mooks. I mean, there will be a bestiary compiled as I said already, but I'm standing by my viewpoint that there is no point trying to find out boss weaknesses prior simply because that defeats part of the challenge of a boss to begin with.

You have Sachi if all else fails and you have a ton of healers. Make use of your tools.

[TheBiggerFish]

#&@$$@&@#&$@&$!!!!!!!
Minibosses != Bosses.  I am speaking strictly about single-unit bosses, as you put it, and even then, only the stuff that is categorical to all single-unit bosses and not to a specific boss.

I'm not saying ANYTHING ABOUT WEAKNESSES AT ALL.  ONLY the purely OOC-motivated uberstrengths.

I'm saying that if it's an OOC necessity to nope certain abilities on [BOSS]-class enemies BECAUSE THEY ARE [BOSS]ES, the person whose new ability is going to be categorically noped when they run into [BOSS]es should be told beforehand.

[IamanElfCollaborator]

.....except I just said that most of the bosses HAVE IC-justified immunities that happen to mesh with OOC necessity, so if you want to find out their weaknesses, that is what you have Sachi for.

[TheBiggerFish]

aaaaaargh

I feel like we're coming at this from two very different perspectives.

What I see is OOC-motivated ability noping on bosses, with IC justifications.  What you've said you're doing is that the abilities that are ICly negated are by chance the ones that are OP.

And either way, knowing that there is a set of things that most big bosses will be categorically immune to, I think that not letting it be known that certain abilities generally will be noped for mostly OOC reasons is not a good thing.

[Empiricist]

Okay. Requesting an increase in Advise's scaling (probably AFTER this battle) seeing as it's a Level 5 debuff that can't even stack the same types.

Request approved, what do you have in mind?

Higher scaling. When the time comes to actually discuss it, I'll go badger other people for advice on it. Plus assuming everyone level ups after this, it's going to be a Level 6 skill by then anyway.

I'm saying that if it's an OOC necessity to nope certain abilities on [BOSS]-class enemies BECAUSE THEY ARE [BOSS]ES, the person whose new ability is going to be categorically noped when they run into [BOSS]es should be told beforehand.

Fish, I believe what Elf is saying is that almost every single ability would have that warning because each boss has its own vulnerabilities and resistances.

.....except I just said that most of the bosses HAVE IC-justified immunities that happen to mesh with OOC necessity, so if you want to find out their weaknesses, that is what you have Sachi for.

Elf, I believe what Fish is saying that is that if an ability will never work on a major boss, or most major bosses due to being something such as Demi, it should have a disclaimer about it at the time of approval.

[IamanElfCollaborator]

Except the issue is that just because the bosses of Mio's world are immune to petrification and Demi, does not then mean that the big boss of a Megami Tensei world or a Kamen Rider world is going to be immune to it.

OOC: Just because I design my major bosses like that does not mean everyone ELSE will. So it's hard to assume that bosses are going to be categorically immune to Demi (granted, it's more likely, but not a given). Especially considering they weren't even in MY plot.

[TheBiggerFish]

But they probably will, because of the whole "OP" thing.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  That there's certain things that would merit a warn based on 'It's highly likely that people will plan to negate this ability in their bosses'.

[IamanElfCollaborator]

And that's a huge assumption, which is what I'm trying to say. I mean, YES they might block Demi, but they might not, and I won't know because not all the bosses are designed or made by the same people with the same immunities.

[Empiricist]

But they probably will, because of the whole "OP" thing.  That's the point I'm trying to make.

Look. This would be a perfectly reasonable suggestion in almost any other game. But the issue is, this game uses player submitted plots and bosses. Elf and Sanure have no idea if everyone else will permit it. I mean, suppose if Demi worked for the Trespasser, but none of the players plots accepted it. That's a real possibility here.

[Shadestyle]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You know full well future bosses will be immune, because doncha know it, all the past ones have.

Oh gee wilikers, why didn't I think of that, boy oh boy it will be so much more fun if i just accept that There is nothing I can do because i just so happened to make a character that is

Completely

Utterly

Worthless

For 60% of the entire game

There is an easy, absolutely easy way to tell that D&G are permanently screwed for the entire game because of their fundamental aspects.
They get statues for killing minions
They need statues to do anything that isn't Trump Cards or worthless.
They have 3.
Their trump card skills are TAILOR MADE for when I cannot fight mooks to get statues to actually play the game.
none of them work
So let me reiterate,

D&G fight mooks in between bosses, giving them statues to grow stronger and get more health and abilities.  seems fair right?
if they don't have mooks, and aren't fighting mooks, they have a skill designed to do more damage to stronger enemies, seems clever and reasonable right?
If that does not work, they also have a flat stun, which allows them to help by debuffing foes, and a poison bite, as a cutesy sort of not-damage.
But not only are there no mooks, nor have there ever been mooks, but the only statues D&G have gotten were Bisnif's, and some fish.
Even though they don't have statues, they ar being forced to fight bosses, which their damage skill does not affect, their stun does not affect, and what do you know? their poison will not effect, because they are eldritch beings, who are immune to poison.

Did I mention Petrify's backstory is because Dackly is blessed by the World to fight tresspassers, which is also why Gozer follows her, and why her powers do not function like a normal medusa?  That's right, her powers are reality warping for a reason.

Tell you what, Just kill off either Dackly or Gozer, i do not care which, and i will rewrite Dackly's sheet as Gozer being absorbed by her, as was the plan originally, with a completely scrapped ability sheet to work with a game that is 99% bosses, 1% mooks, and I'm not guarenteed to encoutnter them.

Dackly isn't screwed out of half the game, you get a precious plot point, and Me? I get to actually have fun.

I cannot play someone whose entire repertoire is Useless Useful spells.

If you don't want to read the rant, TLDR: I haven't been having fun with the game, because I feel like my character his the least useful one in the game right now, due to there only having been 2 instances of them doing well in combat, as opposed to everyone else, and a lack of successful crafting to mitigate their all encompassing weakness.

[TheBiggerFish]

The possibility that a particular hypothetical future boss won't be immune does not justify letting abilities through, without comment, if most sane GMs would sheet up a generic, major boss to be immune to that particular ability.

[Empiricist]

In that case, what we'll basically have to do is have everyone go tell them whether or not their bosses would permit it. Because relying on everyone to agree to what a "sane" decision is, ill-advised.

[kj1225]

Shade, if it makes you feel better, I've designed my next boss with Dackly and Gozer's abilities in mind.

[Twinwolf]

The boss from my Persona plot would block it, but the enemies that come before it wouldn't.

But Dackly and Gozer couldn't come anyway because the plot is restricted to people who are or can pass for human.

[Adragis]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You know full well future bosses will be immune, because doncha know it, all the past ones have.

Oh gee wilikers, why didn't I think of that, boy oh boy it will be so much more fun if i just accept that There is nothing I can do because i just so happened to make a character that is

Completely

Utterly

Worthless

For 60% of the entire game

There is an easy, absolutely easy way to tell that D&G are permanently screwed for the entire game because of their fundamental aspects.
They get statues for killing minions
They need statues to do anything that isn't Trump Cards or worthless.
They have 3.
Their trump card skills are TAILOR MADE for when I cannot fight mooks to get statues to actually play the game.
none of them work
So let me reiterate,

D&G fight mooks in between bosses, giving them statues to grow stronger and get more health and abilities.  seems fair right?
if they don't have mooks, and aren't fighting mooks, they have a skill designed to do more damage to stronger enemies, seems clever and reasonable right?
If that does not work, they also have a flat stun, which allows them to help by debuffing foes, and a poison bite, as a cutesy sort of not-damage.
But not only are there no mooks, nor have there ever been mooks, but the only statues D&G have gotten were Bisnif's, and some fish.
Even though they don't have statues, they ar being forced to fight bosses, which their damage skill does not affect, their stun does not affect, and what do you know? their poison will not effect, because they are eldritch beings, who are immune to poison.

Did I mention Petrify's backstory is because Dackly is blessed by the World to fight tresspassers, which is also why Gozer follows her, and why her powers do not function like a normal medusa?  That's right, her powers are reality warping for a reason.

Tell you what, Just kill off either Dackly or Gozer, i do not care which, and i will rewrite Dackly's sheet as Gozer being absorbed by her, as was the plan originally, with a completely scrapped ability sheet to work with a game that is 99% bosses, 1% mooks, and I'm not guarenteed to encoutnter them.

Dackly isn't screwed out of half the game, you get a precious plot point, and Me? I get to actually have fun.

I cannot play someone whose entire repertoire is Useless Useful spells.

If you don't want to read the rant, TLDR: I haven't been having fun with the game, because I feel like my character his the least useful one in the game right now, due to there only having been 2 instances of them doing well in combat, as opposed to everyone else, and a lack of successful crafting to mitigate their all encompassing weakness.

Take a good look at Sandra. She's one of my favourite characters and she's doing jack-all in combat.