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[Cthulhu]

Spoiler:  Original OP (click to show/hide)

There's been an interesting conflux of events in my life that make it a great opportunity to try my hand at a simple coding project.  I'm posting this in Other Games cause I feel like it'll get more visibility and good suggestions than creative projects.

• My grandma died which has been very hard, but since my full time job outside college was taking care of her, I'm suddenly in need of a hobby to fill this strange, empty house.
• I changed my major last semester to technical writing, which makes coding knowledge and experience useful
• My disappointment with Metal Gear Rising has sent me on an odyssey through various almost-perfect-but-not-quite swordsmanship games, giving me lots of ideas for what a game like this should have

Right now I have basically nothing, just some ideas in my head and a lot of inspirational materials.  It's late so I won't do any serious writing on the mechanics ideas yet, I'll throw some ideas out, let them stew overnight and talk again tomorrow.

The basic idea right now is a simple board game style combat system where you choose position, attack or block angle, etc. and the game determines what happens based on what the other person does, their position relative to you, size of swords, character speed, etc.  So you might choose to swing from top-left to bottom-right (i'm imagining a 3x3 grid) while the enemy swings bottom-left to top-right, and thus your attacks collide and nothing happens.  Or maybe he goes for a different move entirely but you're faster so it gets through.  Depending on your relative position and the length of your sword you might graze him or you might bite deep.  A stat gives you a chance each turn to predict your opponent's moves, or maybe you guess each turn and the stat determines accuracy.  Maybe a reflex stat gives you a chance to correct a dangerous mistake and parry an attack you otherwise would've let through.  This is disorganized because I'm jotting down ideas stream-of-consciousness.  I'll better organize things tomorrow.

In proper Dorf form, lethality is high.  You bleed readily, damage reduces your stats or disables parts of you, maybe your sword can break, and a good shot to the torso or head is probably curtains for you.  I don't want to just make it a samurai game, western fencing is cool too, but the razor-edge lethality of classic samurai combat (Think Kyuzo's duel in Seven Samurai) is definitely an inspiration, where a fight could go on for ten minutes or it could be over in an instant.

If the combat system turns out fun and successful I might expand the game into a bigger kind of thing, with different schools that teach various styles (represented by the strength of various moves, better or lower stats, maybe "feats" that give special opportunities, this all comes after the base game though), tournaments, persistent NPCs, etc.

I have a little experience in Python, which would probably be the best language to use, but I'm willing to study anything and I have the free time to now.

Basically what I'm looking for right now, and hte reason I posted this, is inspirational materials.  Over the past week or so I've been playing Metal Gear Rising (that dismemberment, everything else is pretty boring aside from Jetstream Sam), Kengo 1 and 2 (Think bushido blade with an attempt at persistence and an open storyline that tantalizes but doesn't satisfy.  Also adjustable stances and forms), the Jedi Knight series (what intrigues me about this one is the absence of blocking.  You block by making contact, which is an interesting way of doing things), and I have the Legend of the Five Rings RPG which has a very neat dueling system I'm gonna read more into.

What other kinds of things should I look at?  Any board games, card games, video games, or RPGs that simulate detailed, tactical swordfighting in an interesting way?  Things I might be able to crib inspiration and mechanical ideas from?

Getting all of that out of the way since it's mostly rambling and the ideas for gameplay are starting to come together.

Long story short, I suddenly have a lot of free time and a good reason to learn how to code.  I'd like to make a simple fencing game to teach myself python.  I'll post the current progress on the rules for the combat game below, and go over the basic ideas here.

The game itself is a simple medieval swordfighting game with an emphasis on footwork and movement.  Fighters maneuver across a linear arena in order to gain the advantage and strike.  This won't be simulationist, I'm a big believer in abstraction, but it will attempt to replicate a gritty, realistic feel.  Injuries are debilitating and a single good strike may be all it takes to put the enemy down.

When the basic combat game is done and working I have a few ideas for expanding gameplay.  This'll start simple with new weapons and match setups (Walled arenas, iaijutsu, non-lethal and first-blood fights, etc.), then combat styles and special moves, finally moving towards an RPG metagame where you play a novice fencer looking to make his mark in a medieval low-fantasy world.

Let me know what you think about the rules and I'll try to explain my logic more.  I'm looking for feedback right now as I move along.

Gameplay Description (WIP)!

Here's a tentative mockup of what the UI might look like, which should give some context to what the rules are describing.

[Emma]

Chivalry: Mediveal Warfare and Mount and Blade might be worth a look. You should obviously read as much as you can about swordfighting and it might be worth your time to go to some fencing or kendo lessons to get a feel for what a sword feels like and how it acts. Going to historical re-enactments of some sort might also be worth your time. Good luck with this and if you ever need any play testers I can give it a go.

[Sirian]

You should definitely take a look at "Blade Symphony", it's a really nice swordfighting game in which you duel other people or the AI, choosing from one of the classes and a selection of various swords, each with their unique subtleties. There's a fencing guy, an agile girl, a brutal warrior, and a ninja guy that I can remember.

There's a learning curve but once you get the hang of it, it's really enjoyable.

[Cthulhu]

I have blade symphony.  It's cool but not really the kind of thing I'm looking for here.  Going for a more methodical, realistic style whereas blade symphony is a lot of flying around.

[Sirian]

Well now that I think about it, "Exanima" is pretty nice too in a different way. There's an arena game mode in which you battle a series of increasingly difficult opponents, using all sorts of weapons and armor (that you can pick up once you've defeated them). At first it feels like a drunken fight, but eventually you reach a skill level where it looks like a legit fight.

[Majestic7]

Have you heard of Audatia, a sword-fighting card game based on historical treatises on swordswinging?

[Virtz]

Well now that I think about it, "Exanima" is pretty nice too in a different way. There's an arena game mode in which you battle a series of increasingly difficult opponents, using all sorts of weapons and armor (that you can pick up once you've defeated them). At first it feels like a drunken fight, but eventually you reach a skill level where it looks like a legit fight.

Definitely Exanima. It might look a bit drunken at first (and it currently lacks thrust attacks, which could potentially heavily unbalance it), but the way distance and momentum work in it I don't recall seeing anywhere else, really.

[Malus]

Gonna have to second Exanima. If only it had thrusts/stabs. Since it's all physics-based, if you time your attack right, step into it, and your opponent is still recovering from a missed strike, you can one-hit-kill, and it just feels fantastic. Weapon reach comes into play too: if you have a shorter blade, you can really take advantage of it by closing the distance and getting some good slashes in without giving your opponent a chance to retaliate.

I've been wanting to write a robust melee combat system for a tile-based roguelike, but I've never managed to come up with a solution that's satisfying. Dwarf Fortress does some really neat stuff, but I'd want to give the player more control and information with which to make a decision (probably based on stats, like perception -- you have a chance of noticing that the enemy's eyes are focused on your jugular, or something) but there's simply no intuitive way to wrap it all together that I can see.

[Ozyton]

I don't know about kendo or modern fencing, you might be better off looking at HEMA. Granted, most everything I know comes from youtube videos. If you want to see some youtube videos I recommend Scholagladiatoria and Lindybeige. You might have to dig a bit to find relevant videos but it's all fascinating stuff nonetheless.

Is that Exanima game a renamed Sui Generis? That looked really interesting when I saw it near its announcement, and might be a lesson in how important footwork is an how the lack of footwork can be kinda... crap. An important thing to note about swordfighting is that you can swing a sword as fast or hard as you want but what really matters is how quickly you can move your feet. Odds are you aren't going to be in range to hit the enemy at every given moment in time, because you don't really want them to be in range to hit you back.

[Cthulhu]

I've heard of audatia but I only saw it in a kickstarter and didn't think much of it.  I think I somehow got it conflated with that swordfighting game that got really big and fell apart.  That's pretty close to what I was thinking of with this.  A simplified but semi-realistic fencing game with gritty, low-power combat.

I couldn't sleep, so I'll list some more things I thought of, mostly at random.

Turn system.  I'm imagining an asynchronous system where the game counts down from a maximum number (Let's say 20 for example's sake) and when it reaches your number you make a move.  Then it continues counting to the slower player's number (if it's only 1v1 I dunno if this really makes sense or is an efficient way to do it, the idea is that one character will usually have the initiative and may be able to act twice, based on speed)

But anyway, when it's your turn you can move, attack, block, whatever.  When an opponent makes a move your stats determine how well you predict it, you'll probably know he's making an attack but you might not know what kind or from what angle.  If you fail to negate an attack your reflexes give you a chance to avoid it by taking a step back, but there's a limit to how far you can go.  Depending on the venue and the rules, you could be pushed out of the ring and disqualified, forced against the wall and cut down, or maybe even knocked off a cliff or something.  As in real combat, giving ground is a dangerous thing.  This also gives live-steel matches more ways to end non-lethally.  It feels strange from a worldbuilding perspective to have everything be to the death.  The base combat game can be like that but the expanded version I'm imagining fencing is more of a combat sport than warfare, and while death is certainly a reality outside of certain venues I think the risk should be low.

Maybe add bokkens for low-stakes combat and spars and the like.

More speculative shit follows, this would be something implemented in the later stages of base combat:  Styles!

Hornet Style
This is basically a fantasy version of iaijutsu, turned into an entire combat style.  A little silly but this isn't meant to replicate real life.  Hornet fighters are, well, like hornets, fast and agile and hard to hit, focusing on a single strike at the right moment.  They keep the sword sheathed when possible, using agility to avoid attacks rather than block or parry, and wait for an opening to make a fast, powerful quick-draw strike.  Swords are fast, light, and sharp, but fragile and not suited to slugging it out.
Feat:  Stinger. If you step back to dodge an attack and remain in range for your own attacks, you can immediately make a reactive quick-draw strike on the enemy's turn.

Goat Style
I'm going for less straightforward styles right now cause they're the most fun to think about.   This one focuses on sword "locks."  When two attacks strike the same quadrant the swords meet and there's a momentary opportunity to fight for an advantage.  You can push forward, fall back, or try to maneuver the enemy's sword in an envelopment, potentially leaving him open for a followup attack.  Goat style fighters use heavy single-edged swords and fish for locks, cracking swords together and using their strength to damage the enemy weapon or run him down with pushing moves.  Their weapons are duller and don't do a lot of damage but they rarely break or chip on impact.  Again, a silly style but fun.

This is all still rambling.  When I'm more awake I'll try to organize my ideas more coherently, focusing mainly on the actual mechanics. 

-----

This wouldn't be tile-based.  Definitely a distance system, but probably movement along a single axis, rather than dealing with the complexities of facing, flanking, circling, and all that shit.  You can move forward or back and a lot of the strategy of the game is in maneuvering, but only forward and back.

EDIT:  Basic game plan

• Develop the base combat system.  Ideally this is something that at least sort of functions independently, something I can play through on paper and test
• Develop a game plan for the actual game.  This means designing the UI, figuring out how to implement the various elements into a game, etc.
• Actually coding the base combat system, testing, etc.  The goal is to have the combat system running in game form with a basic AI
• Expand from there.  In a rough order...  Combat styles, weapon types, match types, varying enemy styles and AI levels, worldbuilding.

VVV  -- Reach is a thing and was one of the first things I thought about it.  Movement back and forth are a big part of the strategy, various weapons have different effective ranges, like an average length sword might slice at two tiles and bite deep at one, while a greatsword might be able to hit up to three tiles but become unwieldy at point blank range.  Using footwork to stay out of range is important, since it's the only guaranteed way to avoid an attack. On the reverse end, using superior range to push the enemy back with aggressive maneuvers will inevitably defeat him, since there's a limited range you can move.[/list]

[Majestic7]

Reach and distance are the most important things in a duel, though. If you have a dagger and the other guy has a spear... if you are far away, you are dead. If you are up close, he is dead. In my opinion, any dueling system that fails to work like this fails, unless it is explicitly lighthearted with no desire for realism.

[Ozyton]

Just throwing in my own little vision I thought of. I'm picturing a Torisbash-style game except instead of moving every single joint in your body you have your legs step forward and your sword move to a certain position in a much more manageable way (click and drag maybe?) That's not really text based but it's a thought.

Having movement along one axis shouldn't be a problem as long as it's a one on one fight. Technically you could use a second axis for dodging and such but you could simply write that in as the character having dodged left or right rather than having to work out where exactly on a grid they are.

Reach and distance are the most important things in a duel, though. If you have a dagger and the other guy has a spear... if you are far away, you are dead. If you are up close, he is dead. In my opinion, any dueling system that fails to work like this fails, unless it is explicitly lighthearted with no desire for realism.

That's why the distance would be the only thing measured, rather than an X and Y coordinate. Presumably there would be a system where even though a spear is 6 feet long it's only effective in the range you can move your arm plus those 6 feet, or the range of your lunge. If they get past the point you better get your sword out quickly or you die.

[Majestic7]

Oh if you want to see some lectures from Guy Windsor, the sword instructor behind Audatia, search for "Realities of Steel" on Youtube. You can find recorded lectures from a Finnish roleplaying convention where Windsor talks about historical swordfighting and so forth. I'm sure there are many interesting tidbits there.

[BishopX]

I would also strongly recommend a book called "courage and cold steel". It's a 1900 era saber manual.

[Neyvn]

If you haven't check out this Youtuber...
Skallagrim - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3WIohkLkH4GFoMrrWVZZFA

He generally picks apart much of the mythos behind certain swords and knives, talks about how the really would be used in combat compared to games and other things, He also reviews actual blades and talks about their finer points (as well as some other things like bows and throwing weapons).
Some vids are of him or others dueling with such weapons in actual (but not lifethreating) combat and also points out an Anime which has the most realistic swordplay in his opinion. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tFOJFyTl1U)
Its this if you just want to skip to the anime in question - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_the_Virgin_Witch