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Author Topic: Depopulating the goblins  (Read 3055 times)

Urist Sonuvagimli

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Depopulating the goblins
« on: October 21, 2015, 10:11:21 pm »

It this possible? Do civ members respawn in this version, as they did in .34 (as outlined in https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/1xcvkp/has_anyone_successfully_depopulated_the_entire/post)?
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99Hedgehog

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 11:24:27 pm »

Nope.
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Urist Sonuvagimli

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2015, 12:33:13 am »

Nope.

"Nope" as in it is impossible to depopulate, or that they do not respawn?
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Robsoie

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 01:31:24 am »

Not possible, things respawn after getting killed in goblin sites (and from the comments, it can happen in other sites as well) :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8334
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Urist Sonuvagimli

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2015, 03:05:06 am »

Not possible, things respawn after getting killed in goblin sites (and from the comments, it can happen in other sites as well) :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8334

It makes sense for trolls to respawn, since they are to goblins what cattle is to humans, and cattle respawns.. The average goblins, however... Do they respawn as well? Would they respawn if their corpse was raised by a necromancer?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 03:08:00 am by Urist Sonuvagimli »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2015, 07:47:59 am »

At the moment the population growth of sites happens as with the player fortress by migrants arriving, the majority of said migrants are not real people but were simply conjured into existence in order to fill up the migration wave.  Only historical characters reproduce in the normal manner and sometimes non-historical characters can get promoted into historical characters, such as when they kill a historical character or when they are given a government position.

Population in AI Sites is limited not by the population limit as with the player fortress but by the available food supplies.  The amount of food produced in a site is determined by it's biome support, by the available types of food that the creature can eat (carnivores populations are always lower), by whether the creature is allowed to farm overground and underground and lastly by how many kinds of food producing professions it has. 

Major sites (called markets) like a fortress which trade with lesser sites on an exclusive basis can import food from those sites in their orbit, allowing their population to increase beyond the level that they could based upon their own core resources.  Goblins however do not have to eat, so their population is limited only by the hard-coded maximum population cap of 10,000 for major sites and 500 for minor sites.  They do however still produce food, which results in them exporting that food and spamming all the nearby sites with troll meat. 
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lion95

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 10:18:27 am »

I have a little off topic question.... which is the version in which people used to create the age of twilight, killing everything in adventure mode? iirc correctly things in 34.11 respawn too.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 10:51:55 am »

I have a little off topic question.... which is the version in which people used to create the age of twilight, killing everything in adventure mode? iirc correctly things in 34.11 respawn too.

Things do not respawn instantly.  If you killed so many people that it exceeds the rate of respawn you could turn every site of a particular type into a ruin.  If I kill everybody in a site it turns into a ruin that then has it has to be reclaimed, but no reclaiming can happen if no civilization is left that knows about the site which is the correct town type to reclaim. 
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ClorrProdigal

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2015, 11:41:02 am »

At the moment the population growth of sites happens as with the player fortress by migrants arriving, the majority of said migrants are not real people but were simply conjured into existence in order to fill up the migration wave.  Only historical characters reproduce in the normal manner and sometimes non-historical characters can get promoted into historical characters, such as when they kill a historical character or when they are given a government position.

Population in AI Sites is limited not by the population limit as with the player fortress but by the available food supplies.  The amount of food produced in a site is determined by it's biome support, by the available types of food that the creature can eat (carnivores populations are always lower), by whether the creature is allowed to farm overground and underground and lastly by how many kinds of food producing professions it has. 

Major sites (called markets) like a fortress which trade with lesser sites on an exclusive basis can import food from those sites in their orbit, allowing their population to increase beyond the level that they could based upon their own core resources.  Goblins however do not have to eat, so their population is limited only by the hard-coded maximum population cap of 10,000 for major sites and 500 for minor sites.  They do however still produce food, which results in them exporting that food and spamming all the nearby sites with troll meat.
So does this mean that the  goblin pop problem can be solved by making it necessary for goblins to eat, perhaps by turning them into carnivores?
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ShinQuickMan

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2015, 12:50:02 pm »

Some testing was done on the matter in the modding forums a while ago. There was some modest success, but not quite enough to allay the problem entirely (ie 600 trolls and goblins at a site instead of thousands of them).

Check the results if you'd like.
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Urist Sonuvagimli

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2015, 01:02:22 pm »

I've definitely seen the world pass into an age of goblins in 34.11(happened during fort mode though).

One of the changes to the eras in .40 seems to be the persistence of the age of Myth. In an all-medium world generated, even passing of 1050 years is not enough to end the myth. Back in .34 there was a huge diversity, where world would eventually (and logically) pass from mythical age to the age of heroes, then legends, then golden age or age of *civilization*. It made the timeline so engaging, not to say, made me look through the legends mode to uncover the mysteries of age of myth.

Now it seems, all the worlds can only have 3 eras: "Myth", "Of *Megabeast*" and "Of Goblins". Rarely I get Golden age in the world with the least amount of beasts.

I wonder if the respawning behavior is connected to this.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2015, 01:42:54 pm »

So does this mean that the  goblin pop problem can be solved by making it necessary for goblins to eat, perhaps by turning them into carnivores?

Yes, that is how you solve the problem.  Make goblins have to eat and the population of a dark fortress tends to be around 2000-3000 rather than a full 10,000.  Retaining carnivore tag would be a bit too effective.
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bluemovie

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2015, 08:56:52 am »

Now it seems, all the worlds can only have 3 eras: "Myth", "Of *Megabeast*" and "Of Goblins". Rarely I get Golden age in the world with the least amount of beasts.
You`re wrong. In addition at your eras I also have age of elves, age of dwarves, twillight age, golden age and age of fairy tales. But I havent seen age of heroes and age of legend anymore as in 34.11. Age of Myth the must usually era.
I have not modify game at all
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Sorry for my english

GoblinCookie

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2015, 10:54:36 am »

You`re wrong. In addition at your eras I also have age of elves, age of dwarves, twillight age, golden age and age of fairy tales. But I havent seen age of heroes and age of legend anymore as in 34.11. Age of Myth the must usually era.
I have not modify game at all

It all depends upon number of historical characters, size of world, number of sites and so on.
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bluemovie

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Re: Depopulating the goblins
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2015, 11:03:09 am »

It all depends upon number of historical characters, size of world, number of sites and so on.
Im only told about much than 3 eras in current version DF
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Sorry for my english