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[Flying Teasets]

Putin failed to retire gracefully in prison after Mongolia trip, now only success or a window is left for him.

[bloop_bleep]

Well, it happened again: I've been attacked (On Reddit) for saying Israel and Hamas are both cunts. In this case, apparently I'm a supporter of terrorism. I was also shadowbanned from the subreddit for this opinion, despite it being ostensibly a politically neutral subreddit.

I can't help but feel that people have been fed a false dichotomy that you *have* to be on one side or the other, and they've fallen for it hook, line and sinker, apparently lacking the critical thinking skills to adopt literally any other position including "I've no idea what's going on so I'm staying out of it". Instead everyone out there seems to think that Israel's either a saintly country or full to the brim of genocide-supporting dickheads, and Palestine is either full of faultless victims or else the Middle Eastern Nazi Germany.

It's so goddamn frustrating because you can't actually hold a conversation or argument about it with anyone without it rapidly devolving into accusations of supporting genocide or war crimes or civilian casualties or what-have-you.

This attitude directed towards you is what I like to consider "accepting the framed terms of the debate". It's a hidden assumption about what the debate can be about, and what questions are allowed to be asked and what positions are allowed to be taken. Often there are powerful actors, who seemingly gravely opposed, are nonetheless both committed to the framing of the debate and act to suppress even the notion that something outside the debate exists. The framing of the Cold War as the all-consuming battle between a capitalist neoliberal Western bloc and a Marxist-Leninist totalitarian Eastern bloc, and the subsuming of each and every political concept into that aspect is what comes to mind to me.

[anewaname]

So, a natural death while waiting for success, is still a success...

[Strongpoint]

Well, it happened again: I've been attacked (On Reddit) for saying Israel and Hamas are both cunts. In this case, apparently I'm a supporter of terrorism.

Yes, you kinda are. If you believe that Israel and Palestine are cunts to the same degree (I don't think you are... you likely prefer Palestinians. Note how you don't use "Likud and Hamas" or "Israeli government and Hamas." You separate Palestinians from actions of... well Palestinians. Why exactly?)

I can't help but feel that people have been fed a false dichotomy that you *have* to be on one side or the other

When you see two people fight there are 4 positions to take

1) Side A is bad\worse and should lose
2) Side B is bad\worse and should lose
3) Side A and B should stop fighting because they are both good
4) I don't give a fuck about A and B and wish them suffer

4, I am above this conflict, is not a virtuous position to take, to put it mildly. Also, if you are 4, it is wise to not try to make other 4s, it won't work.

Instead everyone out there seems to think that Israel's either a saintly country or full to the brim of genocide-supporting dickheads, and Palestine is either full of faultless victims or else the Middle Eastern Nazi Germany.

Not really. There are people like that. There are also people who see flaws in their side. But all people will be pissed if you compare them with their enemy saying they are "the same".  Like, I will see the phrase "Ukraine and Russia are both corrupted shitholes I don't care about" as an insult. As a way larger insult than "Ukraine is a corrupted shithole I don't care about.".

[hector13]

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

My position is that cunts being cunts to each other won’t stop either cunt being a cunt until one cunt has been effectively cunted, which is a cunt of a situation. There are probably other positions between the ones you posit.

Edit: anyway, more time, let’s debate talk past each other ‘cause we both think the other is a buffoon:

Well, it happened again: I've been attacked (On Reddit) for saying Israel and Hamas are both cunts. In this case, apparently I'm a supporter of terrorism.

Yes, you kinda are. If you believe that Israel and Palestine are cunts to the same degree (I don't think you are... you likely prefer Palestinians. Note how you don't use "Likud and Hamas" or "Israeli government and Hamas." You separate Palestinians from actions of... well Palestinians. Why exactly?)

The IDF are doing these things in the name of Israel. This does not mean all Israelis support these actions (see: recent protests in Israel) nor does it mean all Israelis are to blame.

I don’t understand how you still  don’t understand this.

I can't help but feel that people have been fed a false dichotomy that you *have* to be on one side or the other

When you see two people fight there are 4 positions to take

1) Side A is bad\worse and should lose
2) Side B is bad\worse and should lose
3) Side A and B should stop fighting because they are both good
4) I don't give a fuck about A and B and wish them suffer

4, I am above this conflict, is not a virtuous position to take, to put it mildly. Also, if you are 4, it is wise to not try to make other 4s, it won't work.

I mean, there’s at least a C and a D, arguably an E and an F, possibly a G, and maybe an H in there too.

Civilians in both sides, Israeli “settlers”, West Bank Palestinians, NGOs like the UN, and other states like Iran.

But sure, let’s make it binary it’s easier to ignore the nuance that way.

Instead everyone out there seems to think that Israel's either a saintly country or full to the brim of genocide-supporting dickheads, and Palestine is either full of faultless victims or else the Middle Eastern Nazi Germany.

Not really. There are people like that. There are also people who see flaws in their side. But all people will be pissed if you compare them with their enemy saying they are "the same".  Like, I will see the phrase "Ukraine and Russia are both corrupted shitholes I don't care about" as an insult. As a way larger insult than "Ukraine is a corrupted shithole I don't care about.".

I mean… both sides are using violence to try to eliminate the other side, just Israel wants Palestinians off the land they want rather than exterminating them like Hamas want to do with Israel and Jews.

Is there a qualitative difference in there? I guess, but it’s hair-splitting more than anything else.

[Strongpoint]

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

World is full of absolutes. Like if you are walking on the street and see a child being raped, you absolutely take their side (if you have any non-monstrous morals).

The IDF are doing these things in the name of Israel. This does not mean all Israelis support these actions (see: recent protests in Israel) nor does it mean all Israelis are to blame.

I don’t understand how you still  don’t understand this.

And I don't get how the properties of individual trees cancel the properties of the forest. Pine forest is pine forest even if some trees in the forest are not pines. Also, it was not me who lumped Israeli together but separated Hamas from Palestinians

Civilians in both sides, Israeli “settlers”, West Bank Palestinians, NGOs like the UN, and other states like Iran.

But sure, let’s make it binary it’s easier to ignore the nuance that way.

"I am morally superior and concluded that both sides are cunts" is anything but nuanced and it was what I was answering too.

You keep pushing the "strongpoint doesn't understand nuance" narrative and it is boring. Thing is, when you discuss if the color is red or not, you don't need to mention "hey, there are many shades of red!"

I mean… both sides are using violence to try to eliminate the other side, just Israel wants Palestinians off the land they want rather than exterminating them like Hamas want to do with Israel and Jews.

Is there a qualitative difference in there? I guess, but it’s hair-splitting more than anything else.

Well, I want to puke. Saying that there is a hair-splitting difference between people who did October 7th (and many other disgusting meaningless terror attacks and vile actions) and the actions of Israel is... well... nauseating.

[Rockeater]

True, Israel is so much worse

[Strongpoint]

True, Israel is so much worse

Name me one action of Israel that approaches October 7th in its monstrosity. I dare you.

Waging a war isn't it, BTW.

[Rockeater]

Creating and maintaining a brutal regime of occupation and aparthide, where the palastinian population is alwaysed treated as lesser beings and repeatdly removed from their land and homes or killed for tring to defend it. Where any resistance to it whether it's violent or not is considered potenially criminal and legitimate target for violent retaliation.

[Strongpoint]

Creating and maintaining a brutal regime of occupation and aparthide, where the palastinian population is alwaysed treated as lesser beings and repeatdly removed from their land and homes or killed for tring to defend it. Where any resistance to it whether it's violent or not is considered potenially criminal and unjastifble.

I see. Occupation (a rather mild one. Compared to... I don't know... most of the other ongoing occupations... calling it brutal is funny. Visit Mariupol or something...) is worse in your books than coming to a civilian area and murdering everyone in sight (except ones taken as hostages for bargaining) while proudly streaming the process. Thank you for being so honest.

[Rockeater]

Happy birthday soon, you are very eliquent speaker for a baby, but you need to learn that things happend before you were born on October 7.

I am sure people here could show how both historicly and in this times what you wrote is bulshit, easy example is sde timan and how the vast majority of palastinans Isreal arrested the last year where totally political arrests and some of them where used in the hostage deal, but the more I talk to you the more I understand I really need to finish with my current work and go do something more meaningful.

[dragdeler]

Just put the hateful cripple on your ignore list.

[hector13]

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

World is full of absolutes. Like if you are walking on the street and see a child being raped, you absolutely take their side (if you have any non-monstrous morals).

Well there you go, you already understand morals are relative and not absolute by the parenthetical.

Try again?

I mean, if a child is being raped in the street, you’re probably in a place in which that is acceptable for one reason or another. Not a place I’d like to be, personally, but my mind doesn’t immediately jump to child rape for an arguments’ sake, so I haven’t put as much thought into it as you have.

The IDF are doing these things in the name of Israel. This does not mean all Israelis support these actions (see: recent protests in Israel) nor does it mean all Israelis are to blame.

I don’t understand how you still  don’t understand this.

And I don't get how the properties of individual trees cancel the properties of the forest. Pine forest is pine forest even if some trees in the forest are not pines. Also, it was not me who lumped Israeli together but separated Hamas from Palestinians

Nobody is lumping Israel together. You are arguing over semantics, which is what people do when they don’t have an actual argument to make.

Civilians in both sides, Israeli “settlers”, West Bank Palestinians, NGOs like the UN, and other states like Iran.

But sure, let’s make it binary it’s easier to ignore the nuance that way.

"I am morally superior and concluded that both sides are cunts" is anything but nuanced and it was what I was answering too.

You keep pushing the "strongpoint doesn't understand nuance" narrative and it is boring. Thing is, when you discuss if the color is red or not, you don't need to mention "hey, there are many shades of red!"

It’s true though. Here we have a complex, decades-long conflict between two groups, some of whom, on both sides, have deep-rooted, culturally encouraged hatred for the other, and you’re comparing it to forests and colours and letters, like some remedial child trying to impress a teacher.

I mean… both sides are using violence to try to eliminate the other side, just Israel wants Palestinians off the land they want rather than exterminating them like Hamas want to do with Israel and Jews.

Is there a qualitative difference in there? I guess, but it’s hair-splitting more than anything else.

Well, I want to puke. Saying that there is a hair-splitting difference between people who did October 7th (and many other disgusting meaningless terror attacks and vile actions) and the actions of Israel is... well... nauseating.

Says somebody who has previously justified war crimes. I guess there’s a line for everybody, eh?

The IDF have been accused of many of the things that Hamas did on October 7th. Indeed, some soldiers who were set to be arrested for raping a prisoner were hailed as heroes by some Israeli protesters and the MPs were prevented from actually carrying out said arrest.

Never mind the tacit support terrorist “settlers”get in the West Bank from the Israeli security forces and courts. Heck, some rabbis have tried to justify things like rape and murder.

One atrocity does not justify another.

[Strongpoint]

Says somebody who has previously justified war crimes. I guess there’s a line for everybody, eh?

Yes. There is a huge thick line between war crimes of the "callous and\or brutal tactics that help to win the war" type and outright crimes against humanity that have no real tactical or strategic value in the war. Nuances, you know? It is especially true if side A is using effective, callous and brutal tactics. If side B doesn't start using the same in response - they are not good guys, they are morons. Once one side broke the agreement to make the war less horrible, the other side is free of that obligation, too.

Also, most of the stuff called Israeli war crimes aren't even war crimes by the Geneva Conventions and common sensze. Like bombing hospitals and places of worship that are used for military purposes by the other side. People who wrote Geneva knew few things about wars after all.

I think you guys simply forgot what a war is. You haven't one for few generations. (no, having your professional army fight a very inferior enemy in a far away land doesn't count as a war.) It is so stupid for me to discuss any moral aspect of war with someone who has no idea what it actually is and thinks in the moral categories of Holywood movies in which good guys are honorable to the point of stupidity and always underdogs.

[Great Order]

EDIT: You know what, the argument's not even worth keeping up. It's pretty much me ranting at being held to positions I don't hold and I've little doubt it'd be taken as a tacit admission that I'm evil or some other strawman.

I suppose the one good thing about this is the discovery that strawmanning seriously tilts me. So I've got that to be happy about, I know something I can work on.