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[hector13]

Israel and Egypt don’t allow international journalists access to Gaza, so where are the Western media supposed to get their news from? Israel have proven themselves to be less than reliable narrators of their actions, understandably so given any admission of intent on their part won’t go down well.

I mean, it’s PR 101 to be perfectly honest: always control the message. Israel has denounced the UN so many times it’s cliche at this point, and not allowing independent eyes and voices in allows them to spin what is getting out as motivated by anti-semitism, regardless the source.

I’ll take the remainder of your response to be a “no” to my initial question, then wonder aloud why there are apparently different standards applied.

… and no, it’s not because of a Jewish conspiracy, of any stripe, or any other bizarre excuse dreamt up by the anti-semites. It is a genuine curiosity. Are western interests in the region such that it’s okay, or just generally necessary to support a regime committing war crimes? The same applies to the other ME allies and their human rights abuses.

Maybe it really is just as vapid as economic interests.

[Strongpoint]

Edit: Situation in Gaza isn't just propaganda. Actually pretty damn rotten, would hate to be a human being living through that right now.

The rotten situation is an understatement. While I think that Palestinian society is deeply ill (MORE ill than Germans in 1930s) and is suffering from the natural consequences of their actions, the way how they are treated by the world is appalling. And what Israel is doing is not that bad. War is war.

Egypt closing its borders to, at least, women and children refugees is disgusting. Qatar, Iran, and others are fueling the war using those people as a weapon in their religious war against Israel, UNRWA making money on them and also doing everything they can to prolong the war, Western "pro-Palestiners" who give no Fs about the well-being of Palestinians and just want "evil white-colonizer Israel" (c) to lose and cease to exist(which will cause literal millions of dead, including Palestinians), the list goes on.

Not a single meaningful entity does anything directed at helping Palestinians.

[Maximum Spin]

It is a genuine curiosity. Are western interests in the region such that it’s okay, or just generally necessary to support a regime committing war crimes?

Honestly, in some sense I'd have to say yes? There's a reason Russia and Iran support Palestine, and it's not because they suddenly discovered common brotherhood across ethnic and religious (remember, Iran is Shiite) lines.

[hector13]

This is one of the times when I wish you were wrong.

Realpolitik can be quite disgusting at times.

[Starver]

Do you think Ukraine would retain the nigh unconditional support of western governments if it treated Russians the way Israel treats Palestinians?

I think that if the Western public would believe Russia Today as much as they believe Al Jazeera [...]

You're seemingly going into the realm of "we get all our news about Israel/Palestine from Al Jazeeraz" there, which is a shakey foundation from where to start the rest of the assessment.

There's various "if this and that then..." bits I wouldn't argue with, and you know where my sympathies lie, but here you definitely start your case off badly. In almost everything you say around this subject, I have to mentally adjust to account for your rather tunnel-vision views.


I'm going to give my answer to the question, by the way: When the persecuted overcompensate and become the persecutors, then that's no longer a matter of cheering on the underdog. The bullied kid who brings his dad's firearm into school and shoots the nasty kids (even just the nasty kids, though it's rarely so neat) can still be a victim as well as a newly arisen perpetrator. This doesn't mean it's acceptable, and there's other problems.


Ukraine attacking Russian territory isn't that, of course. It's more the "learnt to stand up for yourself" level of counter-bully behaviour (a fine line between trading punches as a deterence and going too far, which is why in an ideal schoolyard scenario it should not be allowed to have needed to go that far... real life geopolitics is both easier and harder to 'police' than with teachers/etc in that setup, though... harder to have problems migrate beyond the school gates, as there is no "beyond the school" territory where eyes cannot be kept on things, but we also have no real "adult authority figures" whilstsoever the highest global 'authority' is the UN. Better than the bad teacher ("...he'll just have to learn that the world is a tough place") or the one on the wrong track ("...all I know is that I never had fighting in my classroom until <victim> arrived, and every time I turn around it seems like he's the one in the middle of it"), but very much the ineffectual type who can't ever assert their authority properly.


The situation of Ukraine w.r.t. Russia land is so much different from Israel w.r.t. Palestinian territories that I don't think we could really imagine similarities here, so skip that. Let us instead look to what equivalents we might see. e.g. Ukraine regains tacit control over Donbass/Crimea and then marginalises these "Russian pocket" inhabitants (helped by those who weren't Russian enough either voluntarily or forcibly relocated over these last few years or so - which is still a difference from the Jewish (lack-of-)presence in Gaza/West Bank). Then it could be said to be punishing people just for being more aligned to another system. Then we might see Ukranian efforts to "do an Israel" to an equivalent degree.

Given that mere Russian heritage/identity/language was not really so much of a problem in Ukraine until-recently (hence why so many took it upon themselves to stop identifying as Russian, in the light of increased Russian aggression... even the President... can you imagine modern Israel being led by someone of Palestinian/other-Arabic pursauasion?) the anti-Palestine part of the pro-Israel stance just was not so much seen in the Russia/Ukraine version. (Pro-Palestine and anti-Israel opinions, vis-a-vis arabic neighbours, may or may not have present in the Moscow-centric neighbours doing their equivalent alignment of attitude.)


So there's actually a very large reality gap between the current situation and reaching the equivalent of the middle-eastern situation. Which is not to say that they can go far in that direction before being (rightly) vilified. Actually commiting attrocities[1] against Kursk's population would be a step Ukraine should not take. Also clamping down on the Russian-heritage peoples such as the US did with its 'Japanese' citizenry in WW2. From all I've seen, Ukraine has not gone anywhere near that kind of thing (nor the level of "Ukrainians by Russians" acts taken by the Kremlin's forces and (puppet-)governances), and it should definitely not try to match that.

Goodwill by the Western powers and a degree of due diligence against genuine threats (actual internal arrests/etc having happened) can both be maintained. Pushing down too hard on one side can disrupt the other, and it's in nobody's interest (on this side of the equation) to do that.


I would have no hesitation to say that if Ukraine acted like Israel, it might well deserve to lose Western support. But to even be in that position presupposes crossing the Rubicon long before that. Israel seems to have accomplished its situation by "boiling the frog slowly and over a long time" (plus relying upon 'Western guilt' to excuse putting the frog in the saucepan originally). This cannot happen with Ukraine in any sufficiently similar manner, at least not without a lot more future-history to pack in the necessary prerequisites. One hopes that this would pan out differently; firstly by predominating at all against Russia, then continued to be nudged away from whatever Russia (internally) would have people believe that Kiev is capable of.


[1] "...unnecessary atrocities..." was one version of this phrase, though that would admit to the existence of "necessary" ones. "Unavoidable..." is also differently problematic. There will be errors and generally unforeseen consequences of military decisions, though, for which judgement must have to be made after the fact.

[wobbly]

To be honest I doubt the west's alliance with Israel is about sense. The only thing I see is domestic politics. At some point western nations allied with Israel, and probably the decision made sense at the time. It could have been a good decision, it could have been a bad decision but it made sense. All I see right now is cowards, too afraid to upset the status quo because it might cost them votes. In my own country I see politicians trapped behind keeping an old Jewish demographic happy, and a newer Arab demographic happy, so they support Israel, while waggling their finger at the civilian cost.

I see politicians talk about maintaining an "important" alliance. Alliances work both way, and Israel craps on its allies. Israel assassinated people with fake Australian passports, owned by real people. Yet conservatives talk about the "importance" of the alliance. Israel has no respect for its allies period. 

[wobbly]

deleted, hit quote instead of modify and can't work out how to delete.

[Strongpoint]

To be honest I doubt the west's alliance with Israel is about sense. The only thing I see is domestic politics. At some point western nations allied with Israel, and probably the decision made sense at the time. It could have been a good decision, it could have been a bad decision but it made sense. All I see right now is cowards, too afraid to upset the status quo because it might cost them votes. In my own country I see politicians trapped behind keeping an old Jewish demographic happy, and a newer Arab demographic happy, so they support Israel, while waggling their finger at the civilian cost.

I see politicians talk about maintaining an "important" alliance. Alliances work both way, and Israel craps on its allies. Israel assassinated people with fake Australian passports, owned by real people. Yet conservatives talk about the "importance" of the alliance. Israel has no respect for its allies period. 

Israel has no respect for allies who think that they can order Israel around because of their status as an ally. For some reason, some people think that being an ally means you can dictate how others wage their wars.

As for benefits from being allied to Israel... The easiest and the most obvious one - the enemy of my enemy. Radical Islam's goals are hostile to the Western values and interests.

Another reason is values. Israel is the closest to the Western world in its values in the Middle East. By far. It is the most secular, democratic, tolerant, multiethnic country in the region. Isn't it natural to support it?

Then there are the benefits of shared intelligence (Israel has a decent one) and cooperation in Defense Industries (again, Israel has a decent one).

AFAIK USA\NATO never asked for Israeli military assistance. If anything, they usually asked to not get involved (see Desert Storm for example) but should a need arise, you have a sizeable high tech army that can assist in any war in the Middle East.

[wobbly]

Radical Islam's goals are hostile to the Western values and interests.

Can't agree more. It's also true that radical Jewish goals are hostile to to the Western values and interests, and radical Judaism holds seats in Israel's parliament.

[wobbly]

As for benefits from being allied to Israel... The easiest and the most obvious one - the enemy of my enemy. Radical Islam's goals are hostile to the Western values and interests.

 I mean yes, this is about the best you can ever say about the Israel - X alliance. It's that maybe Israel's enemies are worse?

[Strongpoint]

Radical Islam's goals are hostile to the Western values and interests.

Can't agree more. It's also true that radical Jewish goals are hostile to to the Western values and interests, and radical Judaism holds seats in Israel's parliament.

The most radical of radical Judaism fascists want to carve a greater Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates and 'remove' all non-Jews from the land. They have no interest in attacking Western countries in any way. So, it is still a lesser evil than the dreams of a worldwide Islamic caliphate. Also, this kind of radicalism is rare.

Having seats in parliament or, worse, being a part of the ruling coalition is unpleasant but Israel is still a secular democracy with working laws, unpleasant people in the government can't do whatever they want. After all, the USA has very... interesting individuals in its parliament, too. And the next election may create a government full of hardcore Christian fascists. It won't mean that democracy is over and all American allies should treat the US as a fascist country (even if some people think it is how it works).

Radical militant Judaism is demonstrably not strong in Israel. Israel has a very active and open LGBT community. Israeli comedians openly mock Torah on National television. Many people are openly atheists and face no problems whatsoever. Other religions are allowed to practice mostly undisturbed. Hell, they can't even achieve their top dream of rebuilding the Temple.

[Duuvian]

Spoiler: Summary of report (click to show/hide)

   Antisemitism on Campus: Understanding Hostility to Jews and Israel

Graham Wright,  Shahar Hecht, Sasha Volodarsky, and Leonard Saxe

August 2024

We know that Jewish students have experienced a heightened hostile environment on many college campuses since October 7. But what are the factors that contribute to that climate? This study aims to understand the underlying influences that contribute to the perception of antisemitism on campus. In particular, how non-Jewish students think about Jews and Israel and how these views relate to their other political beliefs or philosophical outlooks. The data for the study were collected in the spring semester of 2024 from undergraduate students at 60 schools with large Jewish student bodies.

Thinking about Israel cover

    Read the report
    Read the technical appendices

Key Findings

In this study, we assessed the reactions of non-Jewish students to nine explicitly negative beliefs about Jews and Israel. We selected beliefs that our prior research indicated most Jewish students considered to be antisemitic, or which could contribute to a campus climate where Jews are discriminated against, harassed, or excluded. Multivariate statistical analyses found that, with respect to these beliefs, non-Jewish students fell into one of four groups:

    66% of non-Jewish students did not display any hostility toward Jews or Israel and their views were not likely to threaten their relationship with their Jewish peers. These students might have contentious disagreements with certain supporters of Israel about the situation in Israel and Gaza, but they did not express hostility to Jews, and their views on Israel were shared by many Jewish students.
    15% of non-Jewish students were extremely hostile toward Israel but did not express explicitly negative views about Jews. Most of these students felt that Israel does not have a right to exist (a statement that over 90% of Jewish students found antisemitic). They also did not want to be friends with other students who support Israel’s existence, effectively ostracizing nearly all of their Jewish peers. At the same time, these students rejected explicitly anti-Jewish stereotypes and did not express positive views of Hamas or its actions. These students were found almost exclusively on the political left, and their criticism of Israel and support of narratives about “decolonization” were in line with their political orientation.
    16% of non-Jewish students endorsed at least one explicitly anti-Jewish belief but did not express intense criticism of Israel. These students agreed with traditional anti-Jewish stereotypes like “Jews have too much power in America.” Although they were not especially critical of Israel’s government, they were attracted to anti-Israel rhetoric (such as the claim that “supporters of Israel control the media”) that correspond to traditional anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. Their political views did not differ significantly from the 66% of students who did not express hostility toward Jews or Israel.
    2% of non-Jewish students were extremely hostile to Jews and Israel. This group endorsed all negative statements about Jews and Israel.

Takeaways

    Although a majority of students are not hostile to Jews or Israel, colleges and universities need to recognize that there is a minority of students who are contributing to a hostile environment for Jewish students on campus. Educational institutions should treat antisemitism like any other form of prejudice and consider what Jewish students are saying about how antisemitism is manifesting itself on their campuses.
    Efforts to address antisemitism on campus need to be more carefully targeted. A one-size-fits-all solution to the general problem of antisemitism on campus is unlikely to be effective. Because students who are likely contributing to Jewish students' perceptions of hostility do not share the same views on these topics (or the same underlying motivations), they may require more than one type of intervention.
    Colleges and universities can do a better job of exposing students to diverse views and encouraging dialogue across differences. Regardless of their political views, including on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, faculty and educators on campus must help students learn how to express and act on their intense political convictions in a way that does not lead to violence or the ostracism of peers who think differently.
    Leveraging research is important. Universities should draw on their own research capacity to make more data-informed decisions about responding to antisemitism. This includes supporting research aimed at understanding antisemitism or evaluating the effectiveness of proposed solutions.

I highly recommend reading the full report. It is fascinating. There is a great amount of data not covered in the summary in the full report.
Full open-source report (click View on the page linked below to open the report, I think it can also be downloaded as a pdf):
https://scholarworks.brandeis.edu/esploro/outputs/report/9924385084001921

[Strongpoint]

 ...Most of these students felt that Israel does not have a right to exist ... express positive views of Hamas or its actions.

One word - hypocrites. There is no other way to unmake Israel (and it is necessary if they have no right to exist) but Hamas way - A military victory over Israel accompanied\followed by genocide.

[hector13]

...Most of these students felt that Israel does not have a right to exist ... express positive views of Hamas or its actions.

One word - hypocrites. There is no other way to unmake Israel (and it is necessary if they have no right to exist) but Hamas way - A military victory over Israel accompanied\followed by genocide.

Does that also mean the politicians in Israel who say Palestine has no right to exist also want to exterminate all the Palestinians, or will we just agree that violence isn’t the only option when it comes to things like this?

[wobbly]

Israel has no respect for allies who think that they can order Israel around because of their status as an ally. For some reason, some people think that being an ally means you can dictate how others wage their wars.

I actually have a different hypothesis on this. Israel does not respect its ally, whether they support the government's agenda or not. Israel does what it wants, f' the rest of the world. Netanyahu has already been caught on record talking about how easy the USA is to play, and the USA has ignored this because politicians care about being reelected more than they care about the actual situation. Politicians from the USA know they are being played and the only reason they don't care, is they are playing games themselves.