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[wobbly]

Israel was carrying out assassinations of its enemies long before October 7, and had the same policy of always retaliating, pretending that's new is just that, a pretense.

[Strongpoint]

Israel was carrying out assassinations of its enemies long before October 7, and had the same policy of always retaliating, pretending that's new is just that, a pretense.

Assasinations are not new. If anything it is a good old Mossad tradition. But intensity varies. Israel was relaxed. Now Israel is pissed off. Most likely, Ismail Haniyeh would be alive as well as most of those in the deck of cards I posted earlier.

As for the policy of always retaliating... Israel wasn't doing that against Gaza, before October 7 counterstrikes against Gaza were minor. Like they are with Lebanon now. Response to the Iranian attack in April wasn't something huge either.

[anewaname]

When you say "the Iranian attack in April", do you mean the rocket/drone attack by Iran on Israel? Israel's response to the Iranian rocket attack was mild because it was made obvious to the world that their air defense would have been overwhelmed if others had not assisted.

As Israel's neighbors have begun to accept that Israel won't be beaten because others will assist them, Israel also has to accept that their behaviour will need to change because others might not assist them. That seems to be what is going on...

[hector13]

IDF reportedly using Gazan civilians as human shields to sweep for traps in Gaza, after dressing them in IDF uniforms.

[Egan_BW]

IDF reportedly using Gazan civilians as human shields to sweep for traps in Gaza, after dressing them in IDF uniforms.

To pre-empt a certain someone in this thread: "I'm sure that this is a made up news story to drive clicks."
("And if it's real, then it's militarily necessary" ("And if it's not necessary then they deserve it."))

[Rockeater]

IDF reportedly using Gazan civilians as human shields to sweep for traps in Gaza, after dressing them in IDF uniforms.

To pre-empt a certain someone in this thread: "I'm sure that this is a made up news story to drive clicks."
("And if it's real, then it's militarily necessary" ("And if it's not necessary then they deserve it."))

And to save more time, This can definitely be real and not just a small group or This specific government issue, look up "Neighbor Procedure".

If the Israeli militarily need to get actual human beings to go in-front of it to trigger traps and soak fire instead of a remote control robot or even a dog, your definition of "military necessity" why you pretend you care about human rights or war-crimes

And If you think "They deserved it", You do not even deserve a response.

[Strongpoint]

IDF reportedly using Gazan civilians as human shields to sweep for traps in Gaza, after dressing them in IDF uniforms.

To pre-empt a certain someone in this thread: "I'm sure that this is a made up news story to drive clicks."
("And if it's real, then it's militarily necessary" ("And if it's not necessary then they deserve it."))

*Yawns*

You don't understand the certain someone. Certain someone thinks that this news are so minor that there is nothing to discuss. It provides nothing new about what Israel is and how its military operates and is about as useless as - HAMAS murdered an Israeli hostage or Assad bombed another district in Syria or Russians leveled a town, or Iran killed a woman for not wearing a hijab. We already know they are doing these things. But the latter, somehow, doesn't get that much attention.

[hector13]

Oh! Oh! A spot the difference. I’m good at these.

Is it because it’s newsworthy that a state engaging in crimes against humanity is being supported by various democratic governments across the world, and the other examples have all, to varying degrees, been denounced by those same governments?

I’m sure that’s it. What do I win?

Anyway. I seem to recall a certain someone suggesting that particular level of war crime was beyond the pale. It’s now minor news, with a heaping scoop of fallacy on the side.

It’s a bit sad tbh.



Ah well, the Putin-esque what aboutery was amusing, at least.

[wobbly]

Yeah but its Israel. There's a weird thing I've noticed in life, there's a group of people who think all governments actions are questionable, but not Israel. It's the one government that can never do wrong.

Edit: Blunt statement, you could support Israel without constantly supporting the worst of their behavior. Plenty of the people actually from Israel do.

[wobbly]

*Yawns*

You don't understand the certain someone. Certain someone thinks that this news are so minor that there is nothing to discuss. It provides nothing new about what Israel is and how its military operates and is about as useless as - HAMAS murdered an Israeli hostage or Assad bombed another district in Syria or Russians leveled a town, or Iran killed a woman for not wearing a hijab. We already know they are doing these things. But the latter, somehow, doesn't get that much attention.

If you believe Iran's actions never get any attention you are probably yawning too much instead of actually paying attention to the news. Not sure how it is in your part of the world but Iran has been constantly in the western news since it changed from a US ally, to one of the US's worst enemies.

[Strongpoint]

*Yawns*

You don't understand the certain someone. Certain someone thinks that this news are so minor that there is nothing to discuss. It provides nothing new about what Israel is and how its military operates and is about as useless as - HAMAS murdered an Israeli hostage or Assad bombed another district in Syria or Russians leveled a town, or Iran killed a woman for not wearing a hijab. We already know they are doing these things. But the latter, somehow, doesn't get that much attention.

If you believe Iran's actions never get any attention you are probably yawning too much instead of actually paying attention to the news. Not sure how it is in your part of the world but Iran has been constantly in the western news since it changed from a US ally, to one of the US's worst enemies.

I am speaking more about this thread and my personal interest than about some generic news. I wouldn't even reply if I wasn't strawmaned in a passive-aggressive way.

Israeli army doing something like this isn't something I want to discuss. Is this kind of thing wrong? Yep.  Do I think it is true? Very likely. It matches the patterns of the Israeli Army. Does it change anything about my evaluation of Israel or the current conflict? No. I learned nothing new. It is a very minor piece of information.


I despise Netanyahu, he is an anti-democratic corrupt scum who, in order to stay in power, made an alliance with literal fascists shit and allowed them to take key spots in the government
I dislike how poorly disciplined and unprofessional the Israeli army is in dealing with civilians (or rather how uneven the discipline is between units and branches.)
Israeli society is outright wrong in allowing so-called "settlers" to do whatever they want.
I strongly disagree with the Israeli occupation policy in Gaza. When you destroy stuff of your enemy and move in, it is your duty to organize passable conditions for civilians. Pulling away and leaving anarchy behind is very immoral and not something a civilized country should do when at war.

Just because I dislike anti-Israeli bias and attack propaganda BS like "there is a terrible famine in Gaza, worst on the planet" or "Israel is doing nothing to reduce civilian casualties" or "Israel is genociding Palestinians" or "undressing a group of men to their underwear to check if they are armed is a terrible, terrible war crime and can't be justified" doesn't mean that I am in love with Israel and like what they do.

[hector13]

Oh you’re saying we’re the bad guys because we don’t discuss those other things you mentioned.

*looks at thread title*

If only there were some reason Iran and Syria don’t get brought up in the non-EU Europe thread/Israel/Russia/Australia thread, and Russian atrocities in Ukraine are brought up somewhere else…

Quite frankly the day that people think war crimes become so routine as to not merit interest is the day we should be ashamed to be human.

Let’s not pretend you’re some paragon of balance. You have taken every step except the last one in painting me an anti-Semite in previous discussions, despite the only issues I have with Israel being the exact ones you just brought up and the like.

Do you think Ukraine would retain the nigh unconditional support of western governments if it treated Russians the way Israel treats Palestinians?

[wobbly]

*Yawns*

You don't understand the certain someone. Certain someone thinks that this news are so minor that there is nothing to discuss. It provides nothing new about what Israel is and how its military operates and is about as useless as - HAMAS murdered an Israeli hostage or Assad bombed another district in Syria or Russians leveled a town, or Iran killed a woman for not wearing a hijab. We already know they are doing these things. But the latter, somehow, doesn't get that much attention.

If you believe Iran's actions never get any attention you are probably yawning too much instead of actually paying attention to the news. Not sure how it is in your part of the world but Iran has been constantly in the western news since it changed from a US ally, to one of the US's worst enemies.

I am speaking more about this thread and my personal interest than about some generic news. I wouldn't even reply if I wasn't strawmaned in a passive-aggressive way.

Israeli army doing something like this isn't something I want to discuss. Is this kind of thing wrong? Yep.  Do I think it is true? Very likely. It matches the patterns of the Israeli Army. Does it change anything about my evaluation of Israel or the current conflict? No. I learned nothing new. It is a very minor piece of information.


I despise Netanyahu, he is an anti-democratic corrupt scum who, in order to stay in power, made an alliance with literal fascists shit and allowed them to take key spots in the government
I dislike how poorly disciplined and unprofessional the Israeli army is in dealing with civilians (or rather how uneven the discipline is between units and branches.)
Israeli society is outright wrong in allowing so-called "settlers" to do whatever they want.
I strongly disagree with the Israeli occupation policy in Gaza. When you destroy stuff of your enemy and move in, it is your duty to organize passable conditions for civilians. Pulling away and leaving anarchy behind is very immoral and not something a civilized country should do when at war.

Just because I dislike anti-Israeli bias and attack propaganda BS like "there is a terrible famine in Gaza, worst on the planet" or "Israel is doing nothing to reduce civilian casualties" or "Israel is genociding Palestinians" or "undressing a group of men to their underwear to check if they are armed is a terrible, terrible war crime and can't be justified" doesn't mean that I am in love with Israel and like what they do.

Thank you for your thoughts, I suspect I disagree with some stuff, but I understand better where you are coming from.

Edit: Situation in Gaza isn't just propaganda. Actually pretty damn rotten, would hate to be a human being living through that right now.

[anewaname]

...
Do you think Ukraine would retain the nigh unconditional support of western governments if it treated Russians the way Israel treats Palestinians?

Not to spin off into a Ukraine thing, but this is exactly what some people are watching for with Ukraine's Kursk advance. Will Ukraine mine farmlands and take defensive actions that cause civilian infrastructure to be destroyed, etc.?

[Strongpoint]

Do you think Ukraine would retain the nigh unconditional support of western governments if it treated Russians the way Israel treats Palestinians?

I think that if the Western public would believe Russia Today as much as they believe Al Jazeera, if Western media would reprint claims of Russians as facts as they do with HAMAS, if journalists and various NGOs would as actively seek (and\or invent) war crimes done by Ukrainians (there is a fair amount, believe me. War of this scale produces a lot, you just need to dig.) and report them again and again while mostly ignoring vile Russian war crimes... Yes, support would be lower. Way lower.

Furthermore, I expect serious problems if Ukraine should start winning big. Let's say the Kursk offensive will be unrealistically successful and we manage to encircle the city and start assaulting it. By the very nature of urban combat, even if Russians would not actively use human shields and evacuate some of the population, it would result in thousands of dead civilians. Also, Ukrainians are blessed by the fact... That Russian civilians do not resist. At least not in the way Palestinians do. If they start to do so - we will have to take steps that many naive peace lovers will see as war crimes\collective punishment.

Also, Ukrainian-Russian and Palestinian-Israeli wars are just different. If a sizeable population of Russians that live in Ukraine would start attacking random Ukrainians with knives, car-ramming and explosives, then there would be a response both from the government and from the public and it wouldn't be much different from what Israelis do.  If the civilian population of the Kursk region did what civilian Gazans did - Followed Russian forces on February, entered Ukrainian territory looting, massacring raping, taking sex slaves, bringing Ukrainian corpses back home to dance on them while streaming it all on the internet, etc... Believe me, no order from above would keep Ukrainian forces polite and civilized.



PS. If we look at the radical segment of pro-Palestine supporters - they are already very pro-Russian. Palestinian + Russian flag is a far more common occurrence in any social network than Ukrainian + Palestinian