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[hector13]

I’m not the one saying things have to mean one thing and one thing only always and forever regardless who says it.

[Strongpoint]

If the goal of Israel is to destroy Hamas (or the like), they ain’t going about it the right way. People having their homes and communities destroyed aren’t going to be philosophical about the matter. Equally so, all of Hamas isn’t in Gaza, so even if it was razed to the ground and all the tunnels filled with concrete, Hamas still exists, or get re-created by some of the Palestinians whose families have been destroyed in Israeli strikes that live elsewhere.

If the goal of Alies is to destroy Nazi Party (or the like), they ain’t going about it the right way. People having their homes and communities destroyed aren’t going to be philosophical about the matter. Equally so, all of Nazi Party members aren't in Germany, so even if it was razed to the ground and all the tunnels filled with concrete, Nazi Party still exists, or get re-created by some of the Germans whose families have been destroyed in Allied strikes that live elsewhere.

________________
The only correct thing here is that if Israel will go for another unfair, cruel, and idiotic occupation policy, there will be a new Hamas or a rebirth of it. Just like there would be a new Hitler if occupation of Germany would be unfair (note that German Neo-Nazi are far more popular in Eastern Germany and think why)

[Strongpoint]

You walk down a Sydney street chanting the N-word you'll find yourself behind bars quick smart.  And the reason for that is that the community, police and government understand it as hate speech.

BTW, are the guys who chanted "Gas the Jews" and "Fuck the Jews" in Sydney around a month ago behind bars already? Or did they do it to pressure the Australian government to lobby for a ceasefire, too?

The goal of the protest was to put pressure on the Australian government to lobby for a ceasefire

In other words, it is to pressure the Australian government to take the side of Good Palestine against Evil Israel. When you bring the flags of a country and chant its nationalistic slogans, it means support for that country, not support for peace.

[hector13]

If the goal of Israel is to destroy Hamas (or the like), they ain’t going about it the right way. People having their homes and communities destroyed aren’t going to be philosophical about the matter. Equally so, all of Hamas isn’t in Gaza, so even if it was razed to the ground and all the tunnels filled with concrete, Hamas still exists, or get re-created by some of the Palestinians whose families have been destroyed in Israeli strikes that live elsewhere.

If the goal of Alies is to destroy Nazi Party (or the like), they ain’t going about it the right way. People having their homes and communities destroyed aren’t going to be philosophical about the matter. Equally so, all of Nazi Party members aren't in Germany, so even if it was razed to the ground and all the tunnels filled with concrete, Nazi Party still exists, or get re-created by some of the Germans whose families have been destroyed in Allied strikes that live elsewhere.

________________
The only correct thing here is that if Israel will go for another unfair, cruel, and idiotic occupation policy, there will be a new Hamas or a rebirth of it. Just like there would be a new Hitler if occupation of Germany would be unfair (note that German Neo-Nazi are far more popular in Eastern Germany and think why)

Of course there’s nothing unfair, idiotic, or cruel about their current policy in Gaza, is there?

You walk down a Sydney street chanting the N-word you'll find yourself behind bars quick smart.  And the reason for that is that the community, police and government understand it as hate speech.

BTW, are the guys who chanted "Gas the Jews" and "Fuck the Jews" in Sydney around a month ago are behind the bars already? Or did they do it to pressure the Australian government to lobby for a ceasefire, too?

https://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palestinian-protest-sydney-opera-house-over-alleged-anti-2023-10-10/

Protest organiser Palestine Action Group Sydney defended its right to protest "apartheid" in Israel but said a small number of "vile antisemitic attendees" had no place in their movement.

"We are an anti-racist and anti-colonial movement and we refuse to fight racism with racism," the group said in a post on social media.

"If you are an antisemite, you are not welcome at our rallies and are not a part of our movement. As we did today, we will ask you to leave and we will continue to do this."

Keep trying, one day you’ll be able to find a way to paint all pro-Palestinian protestors as anti-Semitic. I believe in you.

[Strongpoint]

Keep trying, one day you’ll be able to find a way to paint all pro-Palestinian protestors as anti-Semitic.

Pro-Palestinian? Wait a minute... I thought those were pro-peace and pro-ceasefire?

https://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palestinian-protest-sydney-opera-house-over-alleged-anti-2023-10-10/

I asked if they are behind bars or not, not if the police pretended to care

[hector13]

Keep trying, one day you’ll be able to find a way to paint all pro-Palestinian protestors as anti-Semitic.

Pro-Palestinian? Wait a minute... I thought those were pro-peace and pro-ceasefire?

Is this another delineation we need to make? You can’t be pro-Palestinian and pro-peace?

Better be careful, you might accidentally introduce some gray to your world of absolutes!

https://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palestinian-protest-sydney-opera-house-over-alleged-anti-2023-10-10/

I asked if they are behind bars or not, not if the police pretended to care

Of course we don’t need to worry about things like due process or anything like that. You know, go through the formalities and actually investigate people, make sure they’re the ones that were shouting their vile slurs, spend time making sure they can get a conviction.

Nah, best to just summarily execute people.

Who should we start with?

[Rockeater]

If the goal of Israel is to destroy Hamas (or the like), they ain’t going about it the right way. People having their homes and communities destroyed aren’t going to be philosophical about the matter. Equally so, all of Hamas isn’t in Gaza, so even if it was razed to the ground and all the tunnels filled with concrete, Hamas still exists, or get re-created by some of the Palestinians whose families have been destroyed in Israeli strikes that live elsewhere.

If the goal of Alies is to destroy Nazi Party (or the like), they ain’t going about it the right way. People having their homes and communities destroyed aren’t going to be philosophical about the matter. Equally so, all of Nazi Party members aren't in Germany, so even if it was razed to the ground and all the tunnels filled with concrete, Nazi Party still exists, or get re-created by some of the Germans whose families have been destroyed in Allied strikes that live elsewhere.

________________
The only correct thing here is that if Israel will go for another unfair, cruel, and idiotic occupation policy, there will be a new Hamas or a rebirth of it. Just like there would be a new Hitler if occupation of Germany would be unfair (note that German Neo-Nazi are far more popular in Eastern Germany and think why)

The allies were working on a plan from the start, which is something Israel activly oppose, Israel does not want to stap HAMAS in the long term.

[Strongpoint]

Is this another delineation we need to make? You can’t be pro-Palestinian and pro-peace?

Reminds me of pro-Russian "Pro-Peace" folk - why can't Ukraine just surrender and there will be peace?

So not really. Being on someone's side in a war means you want victory for this side or want to avoid defeat, not peace. Especially when you chant "Israel must be destroyed" sorry, "From the river..."

Of course we don’t need to worry about things like due process or anything like that. You know, go through the formalities and actually investigate people, make sure they’re the ones that were shouting their vile slurs, spend time making sure they can get a conviction.

Nah, best to just summarily execute people.

Who should we start with?

Strawman is strong in you. A month has passed.

[Strongpoint]

Am In a mood for a long, boring post explaining my opinion on the current war in Gaza and related events.

1)On the morning of October 7, entering Twitter to casually read stuff, I was shocked by the sheer barbarity of Hamas and a large chunk of Gazan civilians. I am not a person who is easily shocked nowadays. I have seen a lot of shit in the past years.

2) Then I witnessed glee and celebration of this barbarity all over the internet. Including people whom I considered reasonable. It disgusted me even more than the act itself. So many of those people now scream "Save Palestinian children!"

3) I immediately knew that this meant a big war. No country in the world would leave such an attack without an immediate military response.

4) Considering the history of Israel, what kind of shit is the current ruling party of Israel, how pissed and angry the Russian-speaking segment of Israeli social networks were (including moderates), and the sheer strength of the Israeli military I was very afraid of a genocidal bloodbath in response.

5) Protests against Israel started almost immediately as if it was Israel who broke the ceasefire and restarted the war, almost completely ignoring the barbarity of Hamas, acting as if it never happened. Immediately, those protests were full of outright hatred towards "the West colonizers", Israel, and yes, Jews in general. I am neither blind nor deaf. I heard their slogans. I have seen what they post on social networks. This is hate. If there are some gullible pacifist fools who don't understand what they support - I don't care. Those protests grow and become more scary in rhetoric. As they won't be getting what they want... I am worried about very unpleasant events in the future.

6) Then utterly absurd anti-Israeli rhetoric started to come from the major Western media and NGOs. Like - Israel stopping the supply of electricity to the enemy = collective punishment and a war crime. It was followed by more biased reporting. "Intentional bombing of a Hospital in Gaza killing 500 innocents" was the cherry on the top. It is as close to blood libeling as it gets.

7) My fears of a genocidal bloodbath in response never came true. No, there are deaths of innocents, like it happens in a war, but casualties are really, really low considering the population density and Hamas tactics. I am pleasantly surprised by how Israel conducts this war. Should it change, I won't be supporting what I consider to be evil (still, I won't be waving the Palestinian flag and chanting "from the river to the sea"). But I have hope that the Israeli occupation policy will also pleasantly surprise me, especially if Israeli do a smart thing and kick Bibi out (preferably to a prison)

I got used to living in a world in which countries with nukes can do horrible crimes without consequences. I don't want to get used to a world in which a fanatical religious totalitarian group can do the same and not face the consequences. Hamas must be removed from Gaza. Sure, like with ISIS or Al-Qaeda, you can't remove them completely, but the blow must be devastating and horrifying. And Israel does exactly that. And this I support so very much. Evil of this magnitude can't be tolerated.

9) I truly believe that Gazans having their homes destroyed and lives lost is still the lesser evil than living under Hamas's rule further descending into a fanatical militaristic totalitarian hell that will, anyway, end with a war no matter what. You can't even start bringing freedom to Palestinians before you free a significant chunk of them from Hamas.


10) Ceasefire means that we will be left with an already severely damaged Gazan infrastructure AND Hamas staying in power. Which is the worst possible combination. It also means that sooner or later Hamas will launch another attack on Israel and the war will restart. People calling for a ceasefire are either unwise or just pro-Hamas and want to give them a breather. Also, it won't happen. No diplomacy in the world can make Israel stop. It may weaken their army but not to the point where they will be unwilling or unable to finish. You'll need to invade Israel to make it work.

[hector13]

Is this another delineation we need to make? You can’t be pro-Palestinian and pro-peace?

Reminds me of pro-Russian "Pro-Peace" folk - why can't Ukraine just surrender and there will be peace?

So not really. Being on someone's side in a war means you want victory for this side or want to avoid defeat, not peace. Especially when you chant "Israel must be destroyed" sorry, "From the river..."

Look, I know trying to figure out nuance and context and intent is difficult, but here goes: when hundreds of thousands of people are marching broadly peaceably to encourage their political leaders to support either an end to or just a pause in fighting, maybe, just maybe, they mean they want everyone to live in peace and not the wholesale slaughter of one side? Is it too difficult to understand that, or does everyone have to avoid saying things because a bad person said it to mean something really bad one time, and maybe even acted on it too?

On the topic of nuance, maybe you shouldn’t conflate the plight of Palestinians and Hamas. Just a thought. Just because they are forced to live there and tolerate their presence doesn’t mean they’re pleased Hamas have brought a tempest of military-grade ordnance upon them.

Of course we don’t need to worry about things like due process or anything like that. You know, go through the formalities and actually investigate people, make sure they’re the ones that were shouting their vile slurs, spend time making sure they can get a conviction.

Nah, best to just summarily execute people.

Who should we start with?

Strawman is strong in you. A month has passed.

Aye and suggesting the police are only pretending to care is the height of intellectual discourse is it? Pull the other one wee man, it’s got bells on.

Do you know how long it takes for the police to investigate, take action, and then the courts to prosecute someone, particularly after Covid caused backlogs aplenty? Pretty sure it’s longer than a month, but I’m willing to be proven wrong on that one.

Oh wait you don’t think you need provide evidence for your assertions, what am I talking about, sorry.

Other than that, I’m sure the police in a city of 5 million have nothing better to do than drop everything and find some people who shouted bad things. Just a wee provincial town where everyone knows everyone eh.

Whoops. That one is a strawman, I’ll give you that.

Even forgetting the actual point I was making about how long due process takes, it’s probably not going to be printed in the news, because nobody cares about Joe Average going to jail, unless it’s sensational, and at the end of the day, jailing someone for shouting vitriol isn’t that interesting unless it involves violence.

PPE: long post with you talking the same nonsense you’ve been spouting for a month.

Humanitarian crisis after humanitarian crisis after humanitarian crisis hasn’t stopped Hamas before, it’s not going to stop Hamas this time. It’s going to be a long bloody war and the biggest victims are the civilians caught in the middle, but whatever, Israel has a right to defend themselves, what’s a few bombed refugee camps or UN facilities, or hospitals running out of electricity and fuel and supplies? Nah, fuck the people who get crushed between Israel and Hamas, and fuck them again the next time it flares up, and again, and again, and again… until there’s nobody left to fuck.

[Duuvian]

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-12-2023

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Associated Press reported that Palestinians in the southern Gaza Strip displaced by the fighting are “openly challenging” Hamas’ authority on a limited basis. The Associated Press cited four anonymous Palestinians who told the wire service that some Gazans are repeatedly voicing their dissent with Hamas’ rule publicly.[10] The report said that “hundreds” of Gazans insulted Hamas during the night and called for an end to the war at an unspecified UN shelter in Gaza City.[11] Witnesses told the outlet that some locals are “beating up policemen.”[12]

A spokesperson for the UN agency focused on Palestinian refugees said that the Gaza Strip’s social fabric is “fraying” amid widespread violence among local civilians.[13] The Associated Press report highlighted “riots” in food and water lines, as well as the level of violence “jarring” Gazan society.[14]

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Strongpoint, if it would be of utility, I would be able to go through your 10 points and clarify my own position.

[Strongpoint]

Strongpoint, if it would be of utility, I would be able to go through your 10 points and clarify my own position.

Sure. If you have free time and feel like it. I like learning other people's opinions and discussions, even heated ones (to a degree)

[The_Explorer]

On the defense (sort of) of Israel, which is different than Ukraine/Russian conflict I suppose

From what I've seen, neither ukraine or russia uses civilians as defense (or not much, russia probably more likely? But never hear about it if they do so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt even if their war is degrading. Though I believe BOTH accuse each other of doing it, I don't really see it...not to the level hamas uses that strategy anyway)

Hamas uses civilians as defense, like using hospitals as a shield, and civilian refugee camps. A literal terrorist strategy is to always use civilians as defense

Which begs the question

In vietnam, women (or at least men would force them to, either way) would put bombs in babies (or strapped them onto them anyway) and hand them to US soldiers

Do you throw the baby and kill it/injure it?
or blow up and die and your comrades watch in horror?
This was a huge cause of PTSD from that war, was pretty horrific amongst other things

Most people aren't gonna just throw a baby btw. If I was handed one I wouldn't throw it as my immediate reaction.

But an actual thing that happened over there. Plus the children used as war fodder in that vietnam conflict against the US, also takes a toll cause no one wants to hurt or kill kids (unless they are some sick psycopath)

That does relate to israel btw. Because how do you beat an enemy who uses innocents as defense, without also losing that war or conflict?
And if you just start killing kids and babies, what does that REALLY say about the person doing it? Especially babies more so, but still.

A morale question I suppose. But when the enemy is using kids and babies as a defense shield, thats pretty sick as well. Do you just ignore them and let them cause chaos freely or do you take care of the problem, but harm the innocents? If the latter, the mental damage that causes is pretty severe I would think, if the former, then the problem doesn't go away. There maybe a third option somewhere here.

Also to add my own opinion into the mix. As it still sort of relates. No war can be won today on the west without civilians being involved imo. A good reason US (and the rest of the west) hasn't really won a war in quite a while. Is that a bad thing? Not in my opinion. But...like take the middle east conflict we had under bush, war could been won quite quickly really, but there would have been a huge civilian loss. Would be extremely unpopular on the west, instead the war was just another western loss. Again, not a bad thing to worry about civilians, but its not a way to win a war. Like lets israel and hamas, I was going to take a hypothetical conflict against china and US but kinda off topic there really and the point still will remain. Israel can't win against hamas if they only singlely target hamas. Likewise, hamas can't win against israel if they only target israeli soldiers and no one else. Would be better for world peace and to actually PROGRESS humanityt and technology, but its 2023/2024 almost and lots of nations don't seem to want that in the world...so...

But if civilians get involved, the mental toll and damage is quite severe. Not just unpopular, but the level of PTSD would be extremely high. Knowing one took out innocent lives on purpose. Rather a double edged sword, because to win a war you really gotta focus on winning. Like russia would already be lost if we actually wanted them to lose, but the amount of civilians (innocents) would be too high.

Also why I emphasize the "west". Because most nations outside the civilized western world don't care about civilian loss as far as I can see. ISIS didn't, hamas doesn't, I doubt china would, russia obviously doesn't etc. Not to say any of them are succeeding really, which probably shows you CAN focus on the least amount of innocents lost. BUT, ISIS is still around evoking their primitive beliefs of no women rights, china is still a huge threat, hamas still is a thing currently, russia is still in ukraine. So not to say that one should just ignore killing babies/kids of course, just the whole post is a bit of a back/forth open ended post for one to think about... with (a little of) my own opinion a bit on it.

Also to clarify so no mistaking the post, I don't believe in "WINNING WHATEVER IT TAKES" approach some of the world does. I'd rather see a post-covid free world united to get into space and colonize the moon and other planets, better technology for health and what not. But guess world can't be united even inside the US But hopefully this post does give things to think about for Israel's reaction, whether approved or disapproved and hamas reaction as well really even if what they did was rather horrible. Kinda just trying to be straight middle of the road here to give the most generalized/open ended kinda post.

[McTraveller]

Yes this boils down to, is "by any means necessary" a reasonable tactic?

Most people say "no, the ends don't justify the means."

If you have a culture that really believes "by any means necessary" then there's not much room for dialog - at that point, sadly, force is really the only option, and often it results in "horrific" outcomes.

[The_Explorer]

Yes this boils down to, is "by any means necessary" a reasonable tactic?

Most people say "no, the ends don't justify the means."

If you have a culture that really believes "by any means necessary" then there's not much room for dialog - at that point, sadly, force is really the only option, and often it results in "horrific" outcomes.

yeah pretty much that is what my post all boiled down to, shortened into one line.

I definitely am the former, ends don't justify the means.

Becomes an issue when one side will do anything to win, then it kinda gets complicated for me.

Though I'm not sure what Hamas intended goal was kidnapping a bunch of people, murdering a bunch of people and then killing (some) of the kidnapped people.