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[miljan]

... They waited until it was landed to blow it up? Well, I guess that makes it considerably easier.

Yea. TOW is not exactly a anti air system, as it is more a anti tank system. But the thing that is little strange is that the other chopper did not circle around it while it was down, as that is why they go in pair always . Its still not 100% confirmation as this can be edited old video from fighting in syria as they also have a lot of this choppers.

And that is not Wehrmacht swastika but a addition marking like a cross on the display

[martinuzz]

Its still not 100% confirmation as this can be edited old video from fighting in syria as they also have a lot of this choppers.

Possible. Only news site I can find reporting it so ar is the Mirror and I'm not so sure about it's value. My own Dutch newspaper does not mention it yet.

[Reelya]

It kinda looks like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkenkreuz

But it wasn't really a nazi thing at all, nor is it related to the swastika. It was adopted as the German airforce insignia during WWI in 1918 to help identify friendly aircraft. It fell out of use because Germany was denied an airforce due to the treaty, but they brought in back in 1935 when they created the Luftwaffe.

[Zangi]

It does highlight how there are like 10 different sides in the Syrian war...  1 step forward against ISIS, 2 steps backward as the different sides figure they got breathing room to get to work on their other objectives, before the actual neutrality/transition progress begins... so they would have a better hand.

Then ISIS gets the breathing room to revive in that mess.  (Thumbs up image here.)


What is the list of sides anyways?
Syrian Regime(Regional Rockstars)
ISIS(International Rockstars)
Al Nusra(FSA buddies? Anti-ISIS?  Anti-West)
Free Syrian Army(US/Saudi/Western Backed?)
Turks(Probably almost exclusively Anti-Kurd)
Kurds(Rebels? But friendly with regime? and the West?  More interested in self preservation...)
Iran/Iraq(Married to the hip with regime, well they definitely got boots on the ground.)
Many smaller rebel groups that kinda associate between FSA, Al Nusra, and probably ISIS too.

Then we have the US/West, Saudis, Russia and Turkey as the major international sides with the hands in the pot.  Technically, Saudis are with the West, but they have rather different end goals that won't align with the West if they could help it.

EDIT: I'm on the edge of separating the US and the rest of the West... considering it is likely their end goals will diverge...

[Descan]

No. They give them a friendly escort to international airspace, create some minor diplomatical fuss and go on about their daily business.

And show how weak you are.

Killing people doesn't make you appear strong. Showing you can defend your airspace, COULD kill them, but choose not to if they comply makes you appear strong. Just outright killing them makes you look like a dick.

It's like how a really big, muscle-bound fellow in a suit looks stronger than a oiled-up professional bodybuilder. It's the restraint that shows strength, not the clumsy bumbling around of outright killing. Complete control instead of a hair trigger.

[RedKing]

No. They give them a friendly escort to international airspace, create some minor diplomatical fuss and go on about their daily business.

And show how weak you are.

Killing people doesn't make you appear strong. Showing you can defend your airspace, COULD kill them, but choose not to if they comply makes you appear strong. Just outright killing them makes you look like a dick.

Yeah, but what if they don't comply?

I'm not saying I agree with the choice that was made here, as the airspace violation appears to be minimal, the pilot basically taking a shortcut across a piece of Turkey that sticks out across his flight path. But according to the Turks, they issued 10 warnings in the span of five minutes and got no response.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Killing people doesn't make you appear strong. Showing you can defend your airspace, COULD kill them, but choose not to if they comply makes you appear strong. Just outright killing them makes you look like a dick.

Will Russian jets keep violating Turkish Airspace and bomb Turkish allies? I guess not. It is what matters here.

BTW, Outright killing child murderers  is a very good deed in my books, and no, don't say me that airforces of all countries could hit 100% civilian targets because mistakes aren't crimes.

Russians intentionally targeted civilian targets in Chechnya and I have no doubts they do the same in Syria.

[Zangi]

It wouldn't be surprising for the Turks to extend their airspace into Syria, covering their troops/allies.  But yea, Russians and their love for buzzing. (Malfunctioning Radio?  Don't Russian pilots usually respond to hails?  I don't really know.)

[Descan]

No. They give them a friendly escort to international airspace, create some minor diplomatical fuss and go on about their daily business.

And show how weak you are.

Killing people doesn't make you appear strong. Showing you can defend your airspace, COULD kill them, but choose not to if they comply makes you appear strong. Just outright killing them makes you look like a dick.

Yeah, but what if they don't comply?

I'm not saying I agree with the choice that was made here, as the airspace violation appears to be minimal, the pilot basically taking a shortcut across a piece of Turkey that sticks out across his flight path. But according to the Turks, they issued 10 warnings in the span of five minutes and got no response.

I'm not talking specifically about this incident, though personally if the Turks are correct I'd say they gave adequate warning and were in their right to escalate. Though honestly, I'm not sure I'd believe either the Turks or the Ruskies, they're both kind of... untrustworthy.

I was taking issue with UR's claim that NOT shooting someone down, at all, was weak. As he didn't say anything about escalation or anything, he only responded to the fact that NATO planes escort Russian planes away, nothing implies that NATO planes would not shoot down Russian planes if they didn't comply. Perhaps they'd be a bit more lenient than Turkish planes though.

[Helgoland]

Killing people doesn't make you appear strong. Showing you can defend your airspace, COULD kill them, but choose not to if they comply makes you appear strong. Just outright killing them makes you look like a dick.

Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the fear to attack.

Killing people calls the other side's bluff: You show that you are not too afraid of their potential retaliation to act like you do. Strength lies not only in having the necessary capabilities, but also the will to use them. An example: Obama isn't called a weak president because the US Army has gone to shit during his presidency. He is called a weak president because he is perceived to be lacking the will to use force.

[Shadowlord]

Turkey is in NATO, guys. Their planes are NATO planes.

Al Nusra(FSA buddies? Anti-ISIS?  Anti-West)

Jabhat Al-Nusra is an offshoot of Al Qaida in Iraq, the predecessor of Daesh (ISIS), which refused to recognize the authority of Baghdadi when he declared ISIS. It's still aligned with Al Qaida. This has resulted in Al-Nusra and Daesh fighting, but they've also cooperated at times. It probably depends on the commanders on the ground.

This article on the history and origin of Daesh also talks about the origin of Al-Nusra: http://www.vox.com/2015/11/19/9760284/isis-history

Kurds(Rebels? But friendly with regime? and the West?  More interested in self preservation...)

There are Kurds in Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. They'd like to have their own state - Kurdistan - rather than just being a minority in other states. Turkey isn't likely to oblige them but there's nothing to stop them from doing that in Iraq or Syria now. They're more focused on fighting Daesh at the moment, though.

The ones in Turkey (The PKK) are designated a terrorist organization by the US and others. After joining the war in Syria, Turkey treated even the Kurds in Syria as their enemy, likely out of fear of them joining with the PKK to try to establish a unified Kurdistan that includes Turkish territory.

Iran/Iraq(Married to the hip with regime, well they definitely got boots on the ground.)

It's important to note that the help Iran is providing are all shi'ite militias, much of the Iraqi military is as well, and the great difficulty they've been having is retaking sunni areas without alienating the population, which is difficult when your troops exact retribution for Daesh's crimes on the citizens who merely lived under their rule and managed not to get killed (by being sunni or christian and following their strict 'moral' laws, etc).

My understanding is that there aren't really any "moderate" rebels left, or at least none who aren't unaligned.

Helgoland: Obama's blowing up all of Daesh's fuel transport trucks. I think he's being called weak because he won't flatten the cities Daesh is occupying and kill everything in their territory with no regard for civilian casualties, like we did in WWII.

[Helgoland]

Slightly changed the wording - hopefully that'll make more clear what I meant.

[smjjames]

Not really so much the not using force than not stomping his foot down and actually being tough. Remember those bunch of red lines he had made? He barely did much of anything about them.

[Shadowlord]

Bunch of? AFAIR, there was "Assad using chemical weapons would be a red line for us" but instead of going HULK SMASH when it happened, which wouldn't get rid of the chemical weapons and would just make things worse, President Obama was able to convince Assad to give them all up to Russia to be neutralized, which seems like a win-win.

(Although there have been reports of more chemical weapons being used)

[Helgoland]

(Although there have been reports of more chemical weapons being used)

Yeah, there have. He was 'able to convince Assad' to do the bare minimum amount necessary to give Obama the option of leaving him be without losing face. It's a prime example of lack of political will to change things for the better, really.