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[Schmaven]

Many countries appear to be internally at peace today, despite having had brutally warring factions fighting for power at various times in their past.  So Israel could also go the old school route of military might and just force compliance until all those who fight against them can fight no more, and absorb the territories of Gaza and the West Bank.  When nearby large countries oppose that, it becomes a much more difficult option to imagine realistically. 

Perhaps a tri-state solution?  The Gaza strip becomes a state, Israel remains a state (it is already right?) and the West Bank potentially becomes a state assuming the west bank can be sorted out.  For now, the Gaza strip seems to be well defined and would be easy enough to grant statehood to (after much reconstruction of course).  Keeping terrorists from again taking over its administration is a concern.  But the international consensus appears to be that some multi-state solution is the only way to ultimately have lasting peace.

Since currently, the Gaza Strip and West Bank are governed by different entities (Hamas and the PA), I can see 3 states being easier than trying to merge them together, especially since they are not on adjacent chunks of land.  The West Bank seems like more of an impossible situation to make a state of at this point than the Gaza Strip.  Making the Gaza Strip its own state looks like an easy move once Hamas and those of a similar world view can be prevented from running the show.  And again, after much reconstruction.  But do the people of Gaza even have collectively consistent aims?  And if so, what might those be?  It's very unclear to me if they do.  And honestly, with half the population being mere children, it wouldn't surprise me if they hadn't put much thought into the matter at all, and are just lead around by those in positions of government.

[Strongpoint]

But do the people of Gaza even have collectively consistent aims?

Polls in undemocratic countries are unreliable but according to them - yes they have consistent aims. The majority wants Palestine from the River to the Sea and see themselves as Palestinians who fight for liberation. And I haven't heard of any significant % of Gazans who would consider themselves a separate nation. Some weirdos like this may exist but I doubt they are statistically insignificant.

[hector13]

Half want a 2-state solution based on 1967 borders, actually, and 62% think Hamas should have maintained the ceasefire.

From the river to the sea, indeed.

[Great Order]

"You want rid of us, you have to kill us" doesn't give you permission to then perform an ethnic cleansing.

Did I say anything about permission or that it was right? Nakba was wrong and evil. Ethnic cleansing of Germans of Eastern Europe wasn't right either. I am merely saying that there was a context and that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict did not start with Nakba, Nakba was the consequence of the conflict.

If I'm honest then, you might need to reread how you write things - It definitely came across as an attempt at justification. At least to me.

It may well be the issue that plagues internet debates: There's no intonation in writing which means that things can easily be read in a drastically different manner to how you'd say it.

And thank you for the information on the German expulsion, I was unaware of that one. Had a whole paragraph typed up for that but it was honestly just a bunch of waffling on. Still, the German central homelands (ie modern day Germany) weren't cleansed which is one difference between the Palestinian cleansing and the German expulsion, and a significant chunk of that was actually flight from the encroaching Red Army during the latter stages of the war. Strangely, people don't like being on the frontlines or occupied by an invading force.

I also find it somewhat ironic that Czechoslovakia referred to it as the "German Problem". That's not history rhyming, that's history stealing notes from their classmate.

[Strongpoint]

Half want a 2-state solution based on 1967 borders, actually, and 62% think Hamas should have maintained the ceasefire.

From the river to the sea, indeed.

Indeed - https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf

There is more than one poll, you know? And July 2023 is kinda of outdated now, "stuff" happened.

If I'm honest then, you might need to reread how you write things - It definitely came across as an attempt at justification. At least to me.

The thing is that I am consistent in this thread. I am going against people like Hector13 who push for a very simple idea " Israel is evil incarnate, nasty colonizers doing war crimes for lulz. And Palestinians are innocent victims who just want peace except HAMAS but HAMAS isn't Palestinian fault, it is created by actions of the evil Jews"

While the reality is quite different. The cornerstone of the conflict was and is Palestinians (and Arabs in general) not wanting Israel to exist.

[Il Palazzo]

Jesus, man. You accuse hector of simplistic thinking (what a strawman, btw), and then supply a simplistic alternative of your own.

[Strongpoint]

Jesus, man. You accuse hector of simplistic thinking (what a strawman, btw), and then supply a simplistic alternative of your own.

And what is my simplistic alternative?

Oh, you mean Arabs (including Palestinians) not wishing for Israel to exist? Well, it is simple but it is a fact. It is how all those wars began.

[hector13]

Half want a 2-state solution based on 1967 borders, actually, and 62% think Hamas should have maintained the ceasefire.

From the river to the sea, indeed.

Indeed - https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf

There is more than one poll, you know? And July 2023 is kinda of outdated now, "stuff" happened.

You’re right. Maybe you should try reading the poll you posted?

Before we get started, here’s a survey which was completed in Gaza which shows little support for Hamas, blames Hamas for the problems in Gaza, favoures a two-state solution, and favoirs peace. If you read anything out of that, read the last paragraph of page 12 and page 13. You complain that Israel pausing the conflict to have their hostages released will cause problems in the long-run? So will continuing the conflict.

Note: if you’re not interested in reading the following wall of text, my main points are between 33-36, 39-40, and 55-58.

The survey you posted was conducted between October 31st and November 7th, 3-4 weeks after Israel started bombing the ever loving shit out of Gaza. This is relevant.

Up to table 8 is a breakdown of the demographics of the respondents.

Tables 9-18 ask about whether or not their conviction for various things like peace or a two-state solution has increased or decreased.

19-22 is whether or not they think people will forgive and forget Israel for their actions during the war. A lot say no, but after weeks of having bombs dropped on them and/or friends and/or family, that’s a given.

Up to 26 is how proud they are to be Palestinian, and whether or not they think Palestine or Israel will win.

Tables 27 and 28 support you. Huge support for Hamas’ actions on October 7th, but maybe also take that with a pinch of salt given that the respondents will have been under an intense bombing campaign for 3-4 weeks by the time they got asked by these guys.

29 and 30 are how they feel about various organizations. A lot feel positive Hamas and various other unpleasant people who are shooting back at Israel (is that correlated? I would imagine so, if someone drops bombs indiscriminately on you you’ll probably feel okay about the people shooting back, but that’s conjecture on my part) and not a lot of support for anyone else, including Israel, US, UK, EU, China, Russia, various Arabic nations and the media, as well as the Red Cross.

31 and 32 are why they think Hamas attacked on October 7th. Top answers were to stop violations of Aqsa at 35% and to free Palestine at 29%.

Table 33 and 34. Supports your position that Palestinians want the extermination of all the Jews, a whopping 75% say they don’t want a one or two state solution, they want Palestine from the river to the sea. A fuckhuge caveat on this one though, though I suspect you will completely ignore it in favour of “bUt ThE BaDdIeS SaY iT tO MeAn ElImInAtE dA JoOs”. see tables 35-36, 39-40, 55-56, 57-58

35-36 is how they expect the war to end. About 3/4 of respondents think victory liberates Gaza. Not all that interesting on its own, but see 57-58 for relevance.

37-38 do you feel hopefully for the future given demonstrations of support for Palestine, very surprisingly the answer is yes.

39 and 40. 64% of respondents think the war is between Israel and Palestinians, versus 19% saying it’s Israel versus Hamas. It’s almost as though they resent having bombs dropped on them, or being told to move for their own safety and then having bombs dropped on them.

41 and 42 is why they think the West supports Israel. Mostly perceived anti-Muslim/Arab sentiment, Israeli influence, sympathy for Israeli civilians, and economic interests.

43-54 where do you get your information. Probably irrelevant.

55-56 preferred government is 72% national unity, presumably between Hamas and the PA, because those are the only two options. Almost as though they think either side individually isn’t very good. Not what you would expect for your assertion of massive support for Hamas, is it?

57-58. 83% of respondents would support a ceasefire which involves mutual cessation of hostilities. This does not fit with your assertion Palestinians hate the Jews. They think the war is Israel against Palestinians, they have justifiable excuse (from that perspective) to attack and kill Jews, and they think a victory will liberate Gaza from Israeli control BUT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY SUPPORT AN END TO HOSTILITIES. Square that circle for me, Batman. From the river to the sea…

59 and beyond is for Gazans only. I’ll cherry pick because I think the point has already been made, but there’s supporting stuff here.

61, do you trust Israeli instructions? 19% say not really, 72% say FUCK NO.

62, if you were told to evacuate do you know where you’d go? 84% say no.

63, out of 277 respondents, 276 said there is no safe place in Gaza for them and their family.

TL;dr read your source, it does not support your position. Quite the opposite, in fact.

If I'm honest then, you might need to reread how you write things - It definitely came across as an attempt at justification. At least to me.

The thing is that I am consistent in this thread. I am going against people like Hector13 who push for a very simple idea " Israel is evil incarnate, nasty colonizers doing war crimes for lulz. And Palestinians are innocent victims who just want peace except HAMAS but HAMAS isn't Palestinian fault, it is created by actions of the evil Jews"

Yes, you have consistently ignored evidence contrary to your own position and made assertions without evidence of your own, as evidenced by your inability to read your own source, and your idiotic assertion I’m blaming “evil Jews”.

I’d really quite like you to quote when I’ve blamed the “evil Jews” because you’ve lost all credibility by posting what a reasonable person would consider a very significant misrepresentation of someone’s position.

[Strongpoint]

29 and 30 are how they feel about various organizations. A lot feel positive Hamas and various other unpleasant people who are shooting back at Israel (is that correlated? I would imagine so, if someone drops bombs indiscriminately on you you’ll probably feel okay about the people shooting back, but that’s conjecture on my part) and not a lot of support for anyone else, including Israel, US, UK, EU, China, Russia, various Arabic nations and the media, as well as the Red Cross.

Tables 27 and 28 support you. Huge support for Hamas’ actions on October 7th, but maybe also take that with a pinch of salt given that the respondents will have been under an intense bombing campaign for 3-4 weeks by the time they got asked by these guys.

According to the tables, residents of Gaza who actually get bombs on their heads are less supportive of the attacks than residents of the West Bank. It actually makes sense, if you face terrible negative consequences of some action, you are less likely to support that action.

They also have way worse opinion of HAMAS, probably because for the the WB HAMAS are those cool freedom fighters... For Gaza it is an oppressive corrupt totalitarian government even if some people are heavily indoctrinated. I'd love to see a by age breakdown of support...

In fact, those tables give me a lot of hope for the future "deHAMASification" of Gaza

31 and 32 are why they think Hamas attacked on October 7th. Top answers were to stop violations of Aqsa at 35% and to free Palestine at 29%.

Quite sad actually. A reminder that religious matters are no less important for them than the desire to have an independent country. Nearly zero think that Hamas did that for personal benefits and this is worrisome.

Table 33 and 34. Supports your position that Palestinians want the extermination of all the Jews, a whopping 75% say they don’t want a one or two state solution, they want Palestine from the river to the sea. A fuckhuge caveat on this one though, though I suspect you will completely ignore it in favour of “bUt ThE BaDdIeS SaY iT tO MeAn ElImInAtE dA JoOs”.

Nope. It means eliminating Israel. Opinions on what to do with its Jewish population afterward may vary. But what matters is that as long as the majority of Palestinians want the destruction of Israel, there is no real room for any two-state solutions.

55-56 preferred government is 72% national unity, presumably between Hamas and the PA, because those are the only two options. Almost as though they think either side individually isn’t very good. Not what you would expect for your assertion of massive support for Hamas, is it?

Palestinians who see themselves as a united nation don't like being divided into two different de-facto governments and would prefer them to be united. I find it absolutely hilarious that both sides like the government of the other part more than theirs (says few things about how good those governments are) but it is logical that the majority assumes that some kind of united government is necessary instead of giving all power to one side.

57-58. 83% of respondents would support a ceasefire which involves mutual cessation of hostilities. This does not fit with your assertion Palestinians hate the Jews. They think the war is Israel against Palestinians, they have justifiable excuse (from that perspective) to attack and kill Jews, and they think a victory will liberate Gaza from Israeli control BUT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY SUPPORT AN END TO HOSTILITIES. Square that circle for me, Batman. From the river to the sea…

Your enemy is currently bombing you and moving into your territory occupying more and more of it while you are unable to do any meaningful harm in response. Do you want them to stop? Yes\no?

Their long-term optimism for victory doesn't mean that they are idiots.

[hector13]

… and the quotes with evidence of your assertions on my positions?

Edit: also notable by its absence is commentary on the link I posted about the survey taken the day before the war started.

One might suggest the difference in views expressed between those surveys is a material consequence of the conflict, and doesn’t necessarily represent the views of people during calmer times when they aren’t worried for the safety of themselves and everyone they know in Gaza because they’re being bombed daily by a state that doesn’t like them much.

[Strongpoint]

… and the quotes with evidence of your assertions on my positions?

OK. Here is what you wrote on the day of the barbaric attack, before Israel started a major air strike campaign.

I mean… Gaza is basically under siege by Israel. They control land, sea, and air access (with Egypt) and are quite happy to allow their citizenry to abuse and harass Palestinians if it makes them leave - a situation which is not limited to Palestinians.

This is the same Israel with a far-right government that passed a law that only Jews are entitled to self-determination in Israel.

So yeah, without going into more detail on the horrific things allowed by the Israeli government enacted upon the Palestinians, I don’t condone at all what Hamas are doing, but when their back is to the wall and they keep getting pushed by someone that wants to eliminate them, physically, culturally, or both, and the international community has basically abandoned them to that fate… what other option do they have?

Jews are evil. Jews are blockading Gaza. Jews are genociding Palestinians. I don't kinda support Hamas's attack but they were basically forced to do it by Jews who took all other options away from them.

[Loud Whispers]

Jews are evil. Jews are blockading Gaza. Jews are genociding Palestinians. I don't kinda support Hamas's attack but they were basically forced to do it by Jews who took all other options away from them.

Damn bro didn't realise you thought like this

[Rockeater]

… and the quotes with evidence of your assertions on my positions?

OK. Here is what you wrote on the day of the barbaric attack, before Israel started a major air strike campaign.

I mean… Gaza is basically under siege by Israel. They control land, sea, and air access (with Egypt) and are quite happy to allow their citizenry to abuse and harass Palestinians if it makes them leave - a situation which is not limited to Palestinians.

This is the same Israel with a far-right government that passed a law that only Jews are entitled to self-determination in Israel.

So yeah, without going into more detail on the horrific things allowed by the Israeli government enacted upon the Palestinians, I don’t condone at all what Hamas are doing, but when their back is to the wall and they keep getting pushed by someone that wants to eliminate them, physically, culturally, or both, and the international community has basically abandoned them to that fate… what other option do they have?

Jews are evil. Jews are blockading Gaza. Jews are genociding Palestinians. I don't kinda support Hamas's attack but they were basically forced to do it by Jews who took all other options away from them.

I don't see itm Hector didn't mention Jews once in this comment

[dragdeler]

I'll give you this: the state at the geological location between eilot and nahariyya should exist, is in our best interest to be majoritarily non muslim/arab, and has a right to defend itself... Wether our interests are benign is not included into the discussion for simplicity's sake...

But modern israel the state that conflates jewishhood with nationality, gives rights according to religious adherence, and forces every citizen into military service? The palestinians could be all gone and it still consider that some ugly ugly cult shit, without the whole apartheid state to bring misery upon a part of the population thing.

[Starver]

For my part (and please point out any inconveniently dissimilar viewpoints I may have raised, beforehand...) I both condemn Hamas for triggering the latest episode and think that while doing nothing would be worse the decisions of the current Israeli government/leadership have definitely not been helping. Both before and after the event.

I would not 'reward' Hamas for its actions (a plan gone horribly right, although I suspect that most of the instigators are quite happy with the current situation, not yet reached the "and now what?" stage). I don't see any good way of punishing them, though. And decisions to implicitly support illegal settlers and (perceived-as-?)indiscriminate military persecution of the Palestinians, in the long lead up to this push-back/incursion were clearly tainted with more than a whiff of provocation.


Maybe (or maybe not) both 'sides' underestimated the eventual reactions to each prior action (going back through the years in a cascade of assymetric tit-for-tat, so that there'll never be any hope for agreement that "ok, so it's equal now... pax?"). What will 'settle' the issue is if some part (or whole) of it is completely overturned. What each side would consider that to be is for the other side to 'go away'. What third-party nihilists might accept (they may support either side, safely from afar) is for both sides to be no longer relevent (a blank sheet, upon which a new battle even more of their linking could be established). The closer you are to the trouble, the more the personal danger. With a few exceptions, those who have escalated the trouble have prepared for that sufficiently (for the time being...), far more than any option available to the civilian victims. Or even the foot-soldiers directed to undertake the waves of exascerbating actions.


I can support the people of Israel, even while frowning at the Right-Wing Settler-type leadership; and worry about where the Gazans/other Palestinians are being driven (physically, mentally and ideologically) whilst laying firm blame at the planners of the outrage. I have no truck with "My country, right or wrong", and this extends to "Their country, right or wrong". Moreso, in fact, with having the luxury of perspective. All positions can be nuanced.

It just gets complicated when the majority of people (all?) consider themselves "more sinned against than sinning".