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[Strongpoint]

The Palestinian flag represents the Palestinian people.

Then the flag of Israel represents Jewish people, right?

Flags usually represent political entities. In this case, it is either the Palestinian National Authority or a hypothetical future Palestinian state to replace Israel. Considering that the PNA is not really the side of the conflict..

Palestinians /=/ Hamas.

Nazi Party /=/ Germans.

But I would love to see protests in 1944 calling for ceasefire with Germany because German children are dying and claims that those were not pro-Nazi protests.

I am a little tired of using this analogy but what can I do if it fits so nicely?

they want their government to change their position on the war to discourage Israel from the indiscriminate bombing or starving the civilian populace of Gaza

Nah, it "isn't change tactics of your war with Hamas\Gaza to more humane", "it is stop your war with HAMAS". Besides, Israeli tactics are no different from what any modern army would do and there are no major war crimes. Please, don't provide links to liars from corrupt organizations like HRW, AI or UN. Actual comparisons with the actions of other armies in similar conflicts will do.

There you go making predictions again

*facepalms* That one isn't even a prediction, that one is hypothetical. There are many other possible hypotheticals how Israel can cease to exist and how existence of HAMAS will contribute in this hypotheticals and why not destroying HAMAS increases the likelihood of Israel's total defeat.

How does a ceasefire in Gaza end in Israel’s destruction along the lines you set out?

Do you really don't understand how not destroying an enemy force at your borders increases the likelihood of the destruction of your country?  Note that Israel mistakingly tolerated this hostile force for 18 years allowing it to strengthen and grow, mistakingly thinking that it couldn't cause noticeable harm. Now they are fixing their mistake. Mistake that caused 1000+ deaths of their citizens. What next? More successful HAMAS operation that will take 10000 lives?

[Egan_BW]

You two want to spend your political energies on something more productive? I'm sure you can make positive change in a more efficient manner than arguing with one another. And you're giving me a headache constantly bumping the thread into my unreads.

[hector13]

Yeah ‘cause there’s no non-Jewish Israelis, and all Jews support the Israeli government are the Jews calling for a ceasefire also anti-Semitic?

There’s obviously no difference between a people under a military occupation from a foreign power that hates them and the German war effort in the 40s with their professional army, navy, and air force.

The Israeli’s literally said they were being indiscriminate with their bombing. How do you need more evidence than that?

Israel has fired back when Hamas has fired missiles into Israel over the last 18 years. If it’s a numbers game you’re after, Israel is already miles ahead in the body count score, and the Palestinians in Gaza don’t have any way to fight back. They had the audacity to protest at one point, and nearly 200 of them were killed over a 5-month period..

Waste of time continuing this brah. You think I’m an idiot, I think you’re an idiot. Nothing we say to each other will change it.

[Strongpoint]

 

They had the audacity to protest at one point, and nearly 200 of them were killed over a 5-month period..

Hundreds of young Palestinians, however, ignored warnings issued by the organizers and the Israeli military to avoid the border zone.] When some Palestinians began throwing stones and Molotov cocktails, Israel responded by declaring the Gaza border zone a closed military zone and opening fire at them. The events of the day were some of the most violent in recent years. In one incident, two Palestinian gunmen approached the fence, armed with AK-47 assault rifles and hand grenades, and exchanged fire with IDF soldiers. They were killed and their bodies were recovered by the IDF.

How those "peaceful" protests started. Not that Israel was showing necessary restraint during those bloody events but you are plainly misrepresenting it like Israel randomly started killing hundreds of unarmed civilians just for fun as evil oppressors.

Really, we have no need to discuss further. Your anti-Israel bias is huge and I doubt I'll hear anything new. Whatever Israel does is a huge war crime in your eyes no matter the circumstances. And Palestinians (minus HAMAS, at least HAMAS are terrorists) are always innocent victims.

This conflict is far more nuanced than bad Israeli occupiers and good poor indigenous victims Palestinians. Not in your world.

[hector13]

lol @ being lectured about nuance by you, smh

[Great Order]

You two want to spend your political energies on something more productive? I'm sure you can make positive change in a more efficient manner than arguing with one another. And you're giving me a headache constantly bumping the thread into my unreads.

It's probably also veering into the territory of Summoning The Toad.

I can't enforce anything, but I'd advise both sides just take a step back and breathe. Neither of you is convincing the other.

[hector13]

We each need the last word too.

[Strongpoint]

You two want to spend your political energies on something more productive? I'm sure you can make positive change in a more efficient manner than arguing with one another. And you're giving me a headache constantly bumping the thread into my unreads.

It's probably also veering into the territory of Summoning The Toad.

I can't enforce anything, but I'd advise both sides just take a step back and breathe. Neither of you is convincing the other.

Discussions in public spaces like forums are not always aimed at convincing the other side because there are spectators. Also, often discussions are conducted just to learn someone's else opinion. I said earlier that I like hearing the opinions of other people and questioning them to understand them better.

This one has quite died because not only, as you said, there is no chance of convincing, but it is quite apparent that spectators don't find it interesting (at least interesting enough to join) and both I and hector13 learned everything that is possible to learn about each other's position.

Also, the discussion was destined to slow down anyway because there are no new events to discuss. Gazan war slowly moves to its conclusion and the nature of protests in GB and Australia( countries that are not-offtopic here) doesn't change much.

[The_Explorer]

Anyway...so uh...into other topics related

I'm sure russia is very happy with what Hamas did, since the news is barely mentioning ukraine anymore. I'm sure it will be relatively shortlived, as Israel seems commited to root out hamas and since they seem to be winning easily and none of the other nations joined in, I'm sure ukraine will be back in the news relatively soon.

But I'm sure russia partly was involved in creating the distraction. I linked a CNN article the other day where they showed Hamas had a ton of soviet weapons and (I believe if I recall) vehicles as well, assumedly supplied by russia. Not much was further investigated as far as that goes by CNN, which was a little disappointing. If I was a gambling person (which I'm not), I'd definitely be betting though Russia played a heavy hand in this, more so than Iran.

[Great Order]

To be fair, ex-soviet equipment's all over the damn place. Partially because some of it's pretty rugged and/or easily manufactured, partially because it was supplied everywhere during the cold war, and partially because Russia doesn't really give much of a crap about who it goes to so long as they've paid for it.

[Strongpoint]

I dunno. While Russia is an obvious ally of HAMAS (especially in propaganda) I tend to believe HAMAS leadership that they haven't coordinated the 7th October attack with allies. It explains how they kept it secret from Massad.

The disappearance of the Ukrainian-Russian war from the media is not really the result of Gaza conflict. It already was pretty gone. There is nothing to report in this war of attrition, - "one side took one street of some remains of a village!" is not a good headline. Daily "Russian strike killed several civilians" is also quite repetitive. There is a reason why I post in this thread and have nothing to post in the Ukrainian one.

Gazan war is a net negative for Ukraine but it is rather minor stuff so far like a token amount of Israeli volunteers and instructors going home for their war or pro-Ukrainian Muslims becoming far less pro-Ukrainian after seeing how Ukrainian government and public reacted to the war.

There is also Ukraine and Israel competing for American aid but I don't think it is really a competition, Israeli and Ukrainian needs are different and America has enough stuff for everyone, it is only the question of political will.

[Schmaven]

There is also Ukraine and Israel competing for American aid but I don't think it is really a competition, Israeli and Ukrainian needs are different and America has enough stuff for everyone, it is only the question of political will.

I'm not so sure America does have enough stuff for everybody though.  I recall a recent shortage of artillery shells, and have heard that patriot missile defense batteries also have more requested than currently exist.  Probably enough cluster munitions for everybody and their brother though, I wouldn't doubt that.

Also, w.r.t. the previous back and forth debate, I learned a lot, and gained a much more nuanced view of the Israel-Hamas situation by reading both arguments.  I think part of why that conflict exists, is precisely because each side can make such compelling arguments for their case.

[Strongpoint]

I think part of why that conflict exists, is precisely because each side can make such compelling arguments for their case.

The main reason why this conflict continues is because both Israeli and Palestinian politicians benefit from it. And if Israel is a democracy and there is opposition that wants a peaceful solution, Palestinians have no such opposition of any meaningful size.

Both Fatah and, especially, HAMAS promote hateful ideology. And it doesn't really matter that this hate didn't appear from thin air and is linked to unjust or sometimes outright evil Israeli actions - both recent and ones from decades ago. I hate Russians, there are few things I want more than to see Russia destroyed but I hope I'll never see any significant group of Ukrainians acting like a group of Palestinians did on October 7 and I certainly hope that a huge number of Ukrainians won't gleefully celebrate such a "monumental victory." Look here for recent sociology, 59% of Palestinians fully support the attack of October 7th (table 27)

This hate won't disappear in any other way but how similar hate in German society was eliminated. No amount of diplomacy or goodwill can change Gaza. I can see some chance of diplomacy working with the Fatah-controlled West Bank (Israel doing something with their far-right criminals, so called "settlers" would be a good start) but Gaza - No way. Military invasion and subsequent occupation are the only option.

Is Israel capable of a benevolent and respectful occupation of Gaza? Well, theoretically. They have money to rebuild it, they have a huge asset in the form of loyal Israeli Arabs who understand both Islam and Arab culture. But with Likud\Bibi in power? Pfff... No. Not happening. Then again, the conduct of the Israeli army, exemplary* of a humane invasion (as humane as invasions can be) gives me some tiny hope.

And whatever kind of occupation will replace HAMAS rule it will still be better than HAMAS rule and less harmful to any two-state solution.

*if anyone wants to prove me wrong - give me an example of the army conducting a similar operation in a better way. I'll listen.

[Strongpoint]

“We are witnessing a killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any conflict since I have been Secretary General”- António Guterres.

Yeah, that is about Gaza

I lost my words reading that. OK, I know that UN chose to ignore Mariupol and other Ukrainian cities because if Russians didn't count, UN statistics wouldn't include Ukrainian deaths and treat them as non-existent. There is the ongoing Syrian War, there is Sudan, There is Yemen. There was a very deadly Tigray war that had hundreds of thousands of civilians dead.

How can I assume anything but a huge anti-Israel bias of this organization when its head pushes such an absurd alternative reality?

[Il Palazzo]

The full quote is:

Now, I have been very clear in denouncing the violations of international humanitarian law and the violations of protection of civilians and I have not a mandate to classify the acts that are entities that are recommended.  But I think that more important than a discussion on names is the facts and let’s see the facts.  As you know, we report every year on children killed in armed conflict.  I have already presented seven reports.  In the seven reports, the highest number of children killed in one year by one actor was by the Taliban in 2017, 2018.  The second by the Syrian Government and its allies in again before 2020 and again it was around 700.  We have had Russia last year 350.  We had Saudi Arabia.  If you remember the uproar in relation to Yemen.  In one year, the maximum 300.  Now without entering into discussing the accuracy of the numbers that were published by the de facto authorities in Gaza, what is clear is that we have had in a few weeks thousands of children killed.  So this is what matters.  We are witnessing a killing of civilians that is unparalleled and unprecedented in any conflict since I am Secretary-General.

Your take is slightly disingenuous given the above.