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[Cthulhu]

Yeah.  I feel like that's another issue of what god actually entails.  Are ALMSIVI not gods?  Does the source of their power change anything?

[Neonivek]

Actually I kind of do like that the PLAYER knows that the gods (I am ignoring the Deidra) exists. Yet for everyone else there is absolutely no proof because for the most part they cannot interact with anyone at all (and the Shrine Bonuses... are either non-canon or only work for the PC it seems).

I actually think there is a lot of story telling possibilities in that the Deidra are "evil" but are the only gods you can see and interact with... the only ones who will answer your prayers. Yet the official ones will remain silent and actually can't do anything.

If everyone worships you you are a god.  If you command vast powers and throngs of believers, which all pretenders do from the start of the game, you're not pretending.

I am trying to communicate it. If you have the believers you get vast powers. Many of the pretenders were pretty much ordinary people who managed to con enough people that they gained genuine powers and abilities (a few were... well... nothing until worshipped). Only a select few pretenders are divine without any intervention.

It is one of the reasons why if you lose all your dominion... you instantly lose.

Basically if I was in the Dominions universe and... lets say... I was able to trick everyone into thinking I was secretly a twenty foot ice sorcerer with two heads... I'd become one (or at least gain the ability to transform into one)

[Bohandas]

In the Fallout series neither Jason Bright nor Confessor Cromwell are ever explicitly shown to be wrong, despite the strong implication that moth are merely insane.

[Teneb]

Actually I kind of do like that the PLAYER knows that the gods (I am ignoring the Deidra) exists. Yet for everyone else there is absolutely no proof because for the most part they cannot interact with anyone at all (and the Shrine Bonuses... are either non-canon or only work for the PC it seems).

I actually think there is a lot of story telling possibilities in that the Deidra are "evil" but are the only gods you can see and interact with... the only ones who will answer your prayers. Yet the official ones will remain silent and actually can't do anything.

The Aedra (and other gods) do stuff. It's just they are not that talkative. Let's take Zenithar, for instance: you can have a chat with him in Morrowind, and a non-lethal fight with one of his aspects in Skyrim. Akatosh appears through Martin at the end of Oblivion, and so on.

The shrine bonuses are canon. It's just that it has no point, gameplay-wise, to let NPCs get their bonuses. You are even barred from shrines in Oblivion if you have more infamy than fame.

(also, it's Daedra, not Deidra, though the sound is the same)

[Cthulhu]

Were they?  I can't think of any pretenders that don't start out with powers (even if those powers are just knowing a ton of magic) and I haven't seen a single chassis bio that implies a pretender got that way by "conning" people.

The claims you're making about the game rely on language the game doesn't use.  The pretenders aren't fakers, they're claimants, so you're building an argument on a foundation that isn't there.

And like I said.  Even if they did get their powers by trickery, that doesn't make them not gods.

[Shadowlord]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly is a common trope in video games and what Dominions uses, but it isn't at all what Sappho is looking for.

We should probably take the Dominions discussion to another thread if it's annoying her.

[Neonivek]

Ok now that the topic has changed time to add more:

I'll be sure to only add ones with religion with at least some prominence.

-Diablo series (I think): God is said to exist, yet all "Holy magic" is plain magic that anyone can get regardless of religious alignment.
-Fantasy Warhammer the gods may or may not be real
-Ebberon in Dungeons and Dragons, the theme is that the gods are completely unprovable and that divine magic can be obtained without even believing in any gods.
-Bioshock Series: Religion is such a strong theme, yet you never get confirmation of God coming down and saving anyone.
-Broken Sword 1, 3, and 5: A Staple of the series when it is not terrible... I haven't played 4.
-Darkest Dungeon: Divine magic, but frankly the stars are quiet.
-Total War Series: Religion is important but no deity ever punishes you.
-Civilization Series: Religion but without godly intervention or mechanics to justify it.
-The Sims series (Yes... Religion has an odd amount of prominence... This is ignoring Spode who does exist)
-Fallout series
-Prison Architect
-Tropico

Let me get out more.

[agertor]

I do not know if it was mentioned yet, but UnReal World. You can pray to deities for things to happen, but it doesn't necessarily change outcomes in the game. In fact it honestly feels like a placebo effect. At least when I play.

[GiglameshDespair]

I do not know if it was mentioned yet, but UnReal World. You can pray to deities for things to happen, but it doesn't necessarily change outcomes in the game. In fact it honestly feels like a placebo effect. At least when I play.

Mentioned loads.

-Fantasy Warhammer the gods may or may not be real

The gods are certainly real in Warhammer. The big four chaos gods are, of course, real. The Horned Rat has actually manifested on the world previously. Sigmar responds to prayers, and he's an ascended human.

[Teneb]

-Diablo series (I think): God is said to exist, yet all "Holy magic" is plain magic that anyone can get regardless of religious alignment.

It was clarified in 3 that the gods are usually early humans that were powerful enough people started worshipping them.

-Fantasy Warhammer the gods may or may not be real

Very much no to this one. They are certainly real and very active.

Maybe we should not include games with real-world religions?

[Neonivek]

-Diablo series (I think): God is said to exist, yet all "Holy magic" is plain magic that anyone can get regardless of religious alignment.

It was clarified in 3 that the gods are usually early humans that were powerful enough people started worshipping them.

-Fantasy Warhammer the gods may or may not be real

Very much no to this one. They are certainly real and very active.

Maybe we should not include games with real-world religions?

-Diablo: I am referring to "The" god... Not fake ones that arise.

-Fantasy Warhammer: Nope! They actually give an explanation that basically outright says that gods might outright not exist. They are just entities created by belief and actually lack sentience and free will.

Mind you that might not apply to the Chaos gods... >_> but I honestly don't remember if the explanation ONLY applied to the good gods or if it applied to all of them.

Ohh and let me add another

-Shadowrun: Certainly there are beings that one could call gods... but as for the Grand Deity... No evidence whatsoever.

In fact I am adding fifth category

5) Series where there are either fake or real gods... But where the Grand Deity is largely unknowable yet believed to exist.

For example Witchcraft (PnP RPG) has gods... you could even meet Zeus. Yet the grand deity is something else entirely (though I can't count it because in this setting... it is pretty much official that the Grand Deity outright exists.)

[Teneb]

-Diablo series (I think): God is said to exist, yet all "Holy magic" is plain magic that anyone can get regardless of religious alignment.

It was clarified in 3 that the gods are usually early humans that were powerful enough people started worshipping them.

-Fantasy Warhammer the gods may or may not be real

Very much no to this one. They are certainly real and very active.

Maybe we should not include games with real-world religions?

-Diablo: I am referring to "The" god... Not fake ones that arise.

-Fantasy Warhammer: Nope! They actually give an explanation that basically outright says that gods might outright not exist. They are just entities created by belief and actually lack sentience and free will.

I think a god like the christian one was removed by the time of Diablo 2. I have both that and 3, and no "The" god exists or is mentioned.

As for Warhammer... are you sure you are not confusing that for something else? The Gods of Chaos are actively plotting against the world and each other. Non-Chaos gods (except Sigmar, the Great Maw and maybe Gork & Mork) are stated in The End Times to be survivors from the previous world that was also destroyed by Chaos or Old Ones. Sure, the Chaos Gods are strengthened by belief, but do not owe their existence to it.

[Cthulhu]

The chaos gods are generated by thoughts and emotions, not necessarily by belief.

But that still doesn't mean they don't exist.  neonivek, I still feel like we're arguing two different things. 

[Neonivek]

It is mostly definition.

[Sonlirain]

Right... so there is a game calles "Of Orcs and Men (and a prequel "Styx: Master of Shadows") where Mages are the top dogs when it comes to being well read and are treated by people with reverence similar to monks and priests.
Said mages are being hunted by inquisitors who represent the new unified imperial rerigion.
While mages cast spells by studying magic for years inquisitors brute force their effects by tapping into the prayers of the faithfull.
There is no real God in the settings but you could say the inquisitors use "religion magic" of sorts.

The witcher series have several gods. Most prominently Melitele and the Holy Flame.
None ever responds (and those that do are usually lovecraftian horrors)

Similarly there is some religion in Kingdoms of Amalur. There are priests and acolytes but no proof of the god they are worshipping cares or even exists.