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Author Topic: Games with deities that aren't proven to exist via the game's story/mechanics?  (Read 6654 times)

BlackFlyme

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Fable 1 is the only example I can think of that comes somewhat close. In the first game, Skorm and Avo seemed real, being able to verbally reward or condemn you for your actions, though did little else in-game to prove they actually existed. The closest to interacting with them was hearing a voice when you contribute to their temples or attack their acolytes.

In the Lost Chapters expansion, it is revealed that the two gods were made up by a clever merchant disguising the high concentration of Will as the manifestation of Gods, and asking for 'donations' in exchange for blessings. Doesn't explain the disembodied voices in the two temples though, unless you hand-wave it as the high concentration of magic messing with your head.

Another thought I had was of the Thief series, but I honestly can't remember enough about it to say if the Builder or the Trickster have any interactions/appearances.
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Neonivek

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Later Fables explain this BlackFlyme

Basically there was this Light and Dark force... And when people started worshipping them the forces gained a sort of sentience and identity in accordance to that worship.

Which is KIND of how Black and White worked.
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Mech#4

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Re: Games with ambiguous deities?
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2015, 11:10:40 pm »

Neonivek: Nonsense. The Bajoran religion is the one true religion :P. Voyager disproved the Klingon religion conclusively.

Didn't Captain Kirk meet Apollo in TOS.

Yes but Apollo was a "fake" god. This powers came from an incredibly advanced technology.

Kirk's last words were only that forms of worship isn't bad.

I got the impression that he was an incredibly powerful psychic, ranking somewhere between the Organians and the Q

I've been watching these, pretty enjoyable so far. I think they used some technological device beneath a marble temple to amplify powers. The story came to "Yes, they were the original Greek Gods, who also happened to be sufficiently advanced aliens." from what I recall.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Games with ambiguous deities?
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2015, 12:31:25 am »

Crusader Kings 2! Although I don't think that counts since it's based off of real world religions.

Crusader Kings actually has gates to hell that close with human sacrifice and a literal demonspawn that gets boons from the Adversary and gets the aid of three famous witches who also worship it (this can happen to people who are non-Christians as well, so the demon is not necessarily Abrahamic). So while it might be based off real world religions, it has its own form of religious canon.
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It's been mentioned before, but religion in the Civilization series is a social phenomenon, though I haven't played all the expansions.  Gods and Kings sounds like it might break that rule, but in general the devs have a distinct "opiate for the masses" attitude toward religion.  Wonders of the World have tangible effects, but the effects of religious wonders aren't any better than the ones from secular structures.

There is one definite exception.  In the original game, "Civilization I" if you prefer, building a Temple would prevent the Volcano random event from befalling that particular city.  Unless you imagine the temple built like a giant plug, this effect is definitely divine in origin.
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TempAcc

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Fable 1 is the only example I can think of that comes somewhat close. In the first game, Skorm and Avo seemed real, being able to verbally reward or condemn you for your actions, though did little else in-game to prove they actually existed. The closest to interacting with them was hearing a voice when you contribute to their temples or attack their acolytes.

In the Lost Chapters expansion, it is revealed that the two gods were made up by a clever merchant disguising the high concentration of Will as the manifestation of Gods, and asking for 'donations' in exchange for blessings. Doesn't explain the disembodied voices in the two temples though, unless you hand-wave it as the high concentration of magic messing with your head.

Another thought I had was of the Thief series, but I honestly can't remember enough about it to say if the Builder or the Trickster have any interactions/appearances.

The trickster physically appears in one of the games, I think, being very much real. The Builder, however, remains completely ambigous through the whole series, I think.
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ChairmanPoo

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I don't think the Dominions pretenders are "fake" gods. They are beings with vast powers, whose very presence affects reality around them. I think there's good reason to grant them bona fide divine status. It's just that in the Dominions world this status is easier to achieve than one would expect in normal circumstances.
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Sappho

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Once more, the question was never whether the gods are "real" or "fake". It was whether their existence is in some way proven by the story or mechanics of the game.

I think I'm going to give up saying that, since it's being ignored repeatedly anyway.

I can also phrase it this way: there don't seem to be any games where there are deities that the player is expected to take seriously, but which are never proven to exist either via story or mechanics (with the apparent exception of Dragon Age). Either we are expected to take it seriously because their existence tangibly affects the game world, or we are clearly not expected to take it seriously because it's some kind of crazy/primitive/non-human group who believes in the god.

And for the very last time. I DON'T CARE HOW "GOD" IS DEFINED. This has nothing to do with creation myths or divinity or your own personal definition of what a "god" is. The SOLE question is, and has always been, about whether THE THING THAT IS BEING WORSHIPED, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, actually exists in the game world, and there is evidence of its existence.

puke

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And for the very last time. I DON'T CARE HOW "GOD" IS DEFINED.

Wow, sorry.  I brought up my explanation because you sort of asked.  like, right here:

On the other hand, I do have one other question that I'd like to ask. Many people have responded that religions/deities in a certain game count because even though they provably exist, they are not "divine" or not "real gods." I therefore would like to ask how you guys would define a "real" god. Please be specific! What exactly does "divine" mean? If a god in a fictional world turns out to be an ugly monster with infinite power, how are they *not* a god?

But I get it, you want unfounded myths only.  cool.
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Sappho

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And for the very last time. I DON'T CARE HOW "GOD" IS DEFINED.

Wow, sorry.  I brought up my explanation because you sort of asked.  like, right here:

On the other hand, I do have one other question that I'd like to ask. Many people have responded that religions/deities in a certain game count because even though they provably exist, they are not "divine" or not "real gods." I therefore would like to ask how you guys would define a "real" god. Please be specific! What exactly does "divine" mean? If a god in a fictional world turns out to be an ugly monster with infinite power, how are they *not* a god?

But I get it, you want unfounded myths only.  cool.

Unless I'm mistaken, your last reply was several pages ago and not at all what I was reacting to. I'm reacting to people saying "well in this game the gods aren't proven to exist because they aren't REALLY gods, they're just XXXXX" which is completely beside the point of what I was asking. So, my previous comment was not directed at you - and I think you are actually the only one who directly answered that earlier question about how you personally define a "god", so thanks for that.

puke

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Yeah, no big.  I see the wild tangents and understand.
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NullForceOmega

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Dynasty Warriors series (caveat, based on reality, ancient China).  Numerous religious characters and references, no evidence as to factual existence.  Legend of Legaia, one of the three protagonists is a warrior monk of a religious order, no evidence is ever provided that his deity, Biron, is real or fake (though the game does actively prove the existence of another deity during it's story).  I have no doubt that I can dig up others with only minor difficulty, but for the moment these are the most obvious I could think of.
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Bohandas

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Strangely, some versions of D&D are this. In the Eberron campaign setting nobody has ever actually seen the gods and there are several entities which are worshiped as gods and whose clerics have spells but nonetheless are definitely mortal (The lich Erandis d'Vol, and the Lord of Blades).

Also, in the Planescape setting there's a group of conspiracy theorists known as the "Athar" who teach that the supposed differences between the gods and any other powerful planar beings are no more than an elaborate sham. This is partially borne out by the actions of the demon Sertrous who discovered that cleric magic can be accessed without actually drawing energy from any sort of higher power, and of the archmage Zagyg Yragerne who managed to trap a small pantheon of deities in cages designed to hold demon lords.

Additionally, Eberron's "Path of Inspiration" faith is explicitly a sham
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puke

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Okay, how about this:  http://destroyallhumans.wikia.com/wiki/Arkvoodle

Destroy All Humans.  Your alien god is this set of statues.  You have to do a ritual to activate the statue (becomes a landing beacon) but I also have to do a ritual to activate my computer so I don't think that makes it a proper deity.  Also, I dont think the statues are supposed to actually be the god its self, just you know, a statue of it.  Comes with some fertility myth.
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NullForceOmega

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Xenosaga series, several main antagonists (and innumerable minor) are adherents to a religion, no evidence is ever provided that their belief system is true or false (the plot is incredibly dense however, and it is possible that something slipped past me)

Edit: I want to say that the Nisan Sect in Xenogears also falls into this category, but their actual beliefs are never clearly represented as separate from the faith of the majority, so maybe.

Additional edit:  I wish I could add the .hack series of games here as well, but since everything happens inside an MMORPG in those games, it really doesn't count.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:38:02 am by NullForceOmega »
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