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[Nirur Torir]

Unreal World, the fantasy-Finland survival rogue-like, is close. The PC's religion is spirit worship, and they can learn rituals to sacrifice food to appease the spirits or ask them for something. It's mostly RNG-related effects, like increase chance to find something on a hunt. The only effect I noticed that even gave definite feedback was 'fisher's request for a catch,' which briefly increased the fishing skill on the stat screen. Not something the PC themself could really notice ... Or not, looking at the wiki, there is one ritual that immediately stops bleeding. Pity. While learning to play, it was amusing to sacrifice a portion of freshly-caught, desperately needed meat with the hopes that it would help get more.

I hadn't even considered this topic, but is very interesting. Many christians hold 'faith without proof' as a critical core value of christianity, yet this value is absent in games beyond "These characters are christian/fantasy-christian."

It wouldn't even be hard to have in a game. Just have the PC go through hard times and have a crisis of faith, with the player needing to go the 'stay faithful, continue dedicating time (or money) to religion' path to get a 'random-chance' encounter that allows the best ending. There must be something online along those lines, surely.

[Shadowlord]

The Civilization games were mentioned briefly. In Civ V with the expansions, you can found and spread a religion (as can each other nation), named after a real-world religion but with no other real resemblance to them, and choose bonuses for them, e.g. for every city that has that religion as its primary religion, etc. Wiki page: http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Religion_(Civ5)

My impression is that their effects aren't divinely given, but the result of shaping its followers' beliefs and attitudes and so on. A historical example would be the protestant work ethic.

[Neonivek]

Remember this is Ambiguous.

"Not really there" I feel falls outside this. There are plenty of games where religion exists but where neither gods nor barest hint of their existence are in the game.

[LordBucket]

now I will have to explore why this game, and (apparently) only this game, does this, and why other games don't.

I'll give you a very good reason: Conservation of Detail

You're asking for a significant plot point that has no effect on a story. Try to apply your criteria to something besides religion. When was the last time you heard a game pc talk about their interest in a martial combat style for which there's no evidence of its existence and it has no effect on gameplay? When was the last time you heard a game pc talk about a type of technology for which there's no evidence of its existence and it has no effect on gameplay? If there's no evidence that it exists and has no effect on anything, why would they talk about it?

The only very suitable application of what you're asking for would be background world building. And for that, I think you'll find no shortage of games that have visible but insignificant religions without in-game confirmation of the existence of any genuine deity, but nevertheless aren't portrayed as ridiculous crazy cults. Look at any console game where the temples provide free healing, for example. There's no reason to assume that healing comes from a god when any random character can learn healing spells.

But, your criteria excludes that sort of example, because you're insisting that the main character be the one to express belief. That's a very difficult combination of criteria you're asking for. The main character in games tend to receive less characterization than supporting npcs, because they're stand-ins for the player. It doesn't make much sense for a game designer to go out of their way to characterize a player's avatar as religious if that religiousness has no consequence or relevance to the game. What would that accomplish besides alienating some of your players?

It's possible there might be some rare examples. But what you're asking for is going to be rare even for purely narrative reasons. And even the examples that might exist are probably going to be difficult to find, because evidence for it is likely to be very scarce and unmemorable because of your criteria. You're asking for it to have no existential evidence or gameplay consequence. How much time do games typically spend talking about things besides religion that have no existential evidence or gameplay consequence? Typically not very much. Even take something that you know almost definitely probably has been discussed by a main character in a game but for which there's no in-game evidence or consequence. For example...the player's character claims to be from a specific town or city that can't be visited in-game and from which no items, imports or npcs come from? That's a thing that's probably been done, but how many examples of it can you think of?

[Sappho]

I hadn't even considered this topic, but is very interesting. Many christians hold 'faith without proof' as a critical core value of christianity, yet this value is absent in games beyond "These characters are christian/fantasy-christian."

It wouldn't even be hard to have in a game. Just have the PC go through hard times and have a crisis of faith, with the player needing to go the 'stay faithful, continue dedicating time (or money) to religion' path to get a 'random-chance' encounter that allows the best ending. There must be something online along those lines, surely.

This is kind of what I'm getting at. In reality, quite a large number of people build their entire lives around a religion with absolutely no proof other than "a lot of other people believe it too", yet this never seems to happen in a game. For something that's such a HUGE part of so many people's lives in reality, it seems completely neglected in fictional worlds. If a god (or supernatural being, whatever) is mentioned in a game or is part of a character's background in any way, you can bet your hindquarters that god really does exist in some form and there WILL be some form of proof, with apparently the one exception of Dragon Age. It's not about conservation of detail, not mentioning it because it's not relevant to play. For most religious people, their religion is not just a "side interest," it's a central core part of who they are and how they live every aspect of their lives. A character's backstory can be important to the game's story in many ways, even if it's not relevant to the mechanics - but the character's *religion* is never taken into account unless it somehow is *proven* by the game's mechanics. The above example is just one of many possible ways a character's religion/faith could be explored in a game. But unless the religion is Christianity or some other real-life religion, that never seems to happen. I think it has less to do with conservation of detail and more to do with a discomfort with the idea of faith, unless it's literally the kind of faith the majority of the audience probably believes in in reality.

Anyway, to be clear, I wasn't posting because I was looking for games with religion in them, or "gods" that aren't really "gods" if you mean "god" in the Christian way. I need to write an article. I was told that I had a pitch an article on a specific topic ("myth"), the due date is coming up quickly, and I have been having trouble coming up with ideas. Finally it occurred to me that any myths you hear about in a game always seem to eventually be proven true via the game's story or mechanics, and I wanted to make sure this was as universal, or at least as common, as I believed it was. I'm now convinced that it is. Dragon Age will be my one contrary example (and I suppose I should try to play a bit of it before writing the article). There is obviously a lot to talk about on this topic, so it'll make a good subject for the article. As for the thread title, I just wrote something quickly and didn't want to have a really long title like "games with religions and deities that are never proven to actually exist" so I just used the word "ambiguous" hoping it would catch people's attention enough for them to contribute. I figured people would read the first post before responding and understand what I was asking...

So, thank you all very much for your assistance! I think I have all I need in terms of listing games like this, but if there is another game like Dragon Age where the protagonists' society believes in a god which is never revealed to truly exist in any way by the game's story or mechanics, do let me know. But if the game's magic is said to come from a god, I'd say that's evidence that the "god" exists in some form. If prayers or rituals have instant results, something is answering them. If the "god" turns out to be a demon or dragon or genie or what-have-you, there's still something THERE that can be pointed at. It's not just a story in a book that everyone believes is true for no reason other than an evolutionary need for there to be meaning and authority in every aspect of life, like we have in reality. Therein lies the fodder for my article, and I'm satisfied that I have enough on that topic.

On the other hand, I do have one other question that I'd like to ask. Many people have responded that religions/deities in a certain game count because even though they provably exist, they are not "divine" or not "real gods." I therefore would like to ask how you guys would define a "real" god. Please be specific! What exactly does "divine" mean? If a god in a fictional world turns out to be an ugly monster with infinite power, how are they *not* a god?

Thanks a lot guys!

[Graknorke]

Actually in Dragon Age you do visit the Fade, where the magic spirit city is supposed to be (not that you see it ever). But there's nothing to do with the religion there, it's just the chaotic plane of magic that it's meant to be.

[TempAcc]

I haven't played enough of the banner saga to confirm this, there certainly is worship of gods in it, but no exact proof of their existence. There is magic and monsters, and all your characters have faith in one or another god, but they never manifest in any way, I think.

[puke]

On the other hand, I do have one other question that I'd like to ask. Many people have responded that religions/deities in a certain game count because even though they provably exist, they are not "divine" or not "real gods." I therefore would like to ask how you guys would define a "real" god. Please be specific! What exactly does "divine" mean? If a god in a fictional world turns out to be an ugly monster with infinite power, how are they *not* a god?

Thanks a lot guys!

Can only speak for myself, but what I meant were entities that were either not responsible for a creation myth or not descended from something that was.  For example, aliens or high tech civilizations (indistinguishable from magic), advanced AI, European colonists in the new world or Pacific, or fantasy heroes with lots and lots of power.

If Christianity was tangibly real, this would be like a saint or a prophet having their own cult and being worshiped as a god.  If Judaism was tangibly real, this would be like Christianity.  If Greek myth was tangibly real, this would be like Heracles or Psykhe.

Or, as is more often the case with games, its a bait and switch where you THOUGHT there was a creator or prayer answerer, but really its just the baloonist from the Wizard of Oz, or another godlike computer such as half the original Star Trek episodes.  Or transcendent alien races, like the other half of the original Star Trek episodes... Sometimes these beings are answering prayers, but more often they're running a Wizard-of-Oz scam and playing oracle. 

In no cases have they created the cosmos, and usually they do not wield any powers not explained by science (or "science!" tm).  In some cases they might wield magic, but usually only in a fantasy setting where the same sort of magic is available to regular mortals.

In the case of Asimov's _The Last Question_ (spoilers!) Multivac would be... wow... I can't really answer that one.

I do suggest looking at Viking Conquest, though.  Skim the OP and first reply here:  https://steamcommunity.com/app/48700/discussions/0/610575007214498223/

[callisto8413]

UnReal World  - you can pray and such to help in healing, starting fires, and in the hunt but it really does not seem to matter that much - not to me anyway. 

[TheBiggerFish]

Wow.
I want to see what happens with this now.
Also, yeah, AC or MULTIVAC or whichever is an interesting case.

[Mithras]

In Banner Saga "the gods are dead" some unknown force made great god stones that dot the landscape (You can get buff items from some of these but there's no proof that they're actually magical, better to think of them as relics in the Christian sense perhaps), a god is said to have made every member of the race of Varls but the gods do not interfere in the world, being dead and all and there's no proof that the gods were responsible for anything, people just hold it as common knowledge. I haven't completed the game so I can't say whether its a bait a switch but the wiki seems to indicate that there's no big reveal going, aha the gods did this!

Arthur the roleplaying strategy game is also interesting, religion is a morality track (you can choose between christian and pagan) it definitely unlocks units, can't remember if they unlock abilities and spells too,worth looking into.

[Bohandas]

Strangely, some versions of D&D are this. In the Eberron campaign setting nobody has ever actually seen the gods and there are several entities which are worshiped as gods and whose clerics have spells but nonetheless are definitely mortal (The lich Erandis d'Vol, and the Lord of Blades).

Also, in the Planescape setting there's a group of conspiracy theorists known as the "Athar" who teach that the supposed differences between the gods and any other powerful planar beings are no more than an elaborate sham. This is partially borne out by the actions of the demon Sertrous who discovered that cleric magic can be accessed without actually drawing energy from any sort of higher power, and of the archmage Zagyg Yragerne who managed to trap a small pantheon of deities in cages designed to hold demon lords.

[Neonivek]

Banner Saga the gods aren't ambiguous. They outright exist and once upon a time you could basically just walk right up to them and touch them. Just as others mentioned they are kind of dead...

They were kind of Norse Gods in power so even mortals could kill one if they were good enough or lucky enough.

[Shadowlord]

So... Since I didn't remember any gods or mention of gods in Kingdom of Amalur: Reckoning (I completed the game a few years ago), I decided to do a simple search ("kingdom of amalur gods"), which led me to http://amalur.wikia.com/wiki/Patron_Gods

Apparently you could choose a patron god during character creation, which gives you a bonus, something which I had completely forgotten.
That page also noted that there were shrines and temples, and that there were factions loyal to particular deities such as http://amalur.wikia.com/wiki/Belen%27s_Testament - one of their priests mentioned on the wiki is http://amalur.wikia.com/wiki/Einar_Abergast.

I'd completely forgotten all of that, but they were probably just more enemies in a long series of enemies to me, and at some point I stopped paying attention to the story and just started destroying everything that stood in my way because it's a really long game.

So I'm wondering... is it really the case that games lack mention of gods and religion, or is it more likely that we (or I at least) have simply forgotten about it afterwards if it wasn't particularly memorable?

[LordBucket]

if there is another game like Dragon Age where the protagonists' society believes in a god which is never revealed to truly exist in any way by the game's story or mechanics, do let me know.

Wait, so it doesn't have to be a PC-controlled protagonist specifically, but any game where a primary society has religious beliefs that are neither villified nor confirmed? In that case, there are lots. For example:

 * Eve Online features a religiously-themed primary race, the Amarr, who are loudly theocratic, and yet so far as I know there is no validation of any deity or their religion in general.

 * Starcraft 1 features the Protoss, an extremely religious race that actively praises their religious figures via in game speech, yet there is no validation of any deity. Yes, validation does occur in the sequal, when it's revealed that the Xelnaga are actually real. But there were twelve years between the first and second games.

 * Star Trek Armada features the Klingons as a playable race. They, like in Starcraft, shout religiously themed statements, praise their afterlife etc. and yet there is no validation of the existence of any deity, or of their religion in general.

 * Civilization features clearly religious societies with temples and shrines and cathedrals, but there is no validation of the existence of any deity.

 * Master of Magic, like Civilization, features primary races with temples and other religious buildings, and yet gives no validation of any deity. In fact, the game mechanics tend to imply that the religions are false, because the player character is siphoning power from those religious structures for his own personal use, and the priest units in the game have no spell abilities that are different from those available to the character. The obvious interpretation is that the deities are false, and the player is using their belief as energy to fuel regular magic.