Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sappho]

I'm hoping you guys can help me with some research. Can any of you think of any games where there is a religion or belief in a god/deity which is not proven to be real?

What I mean is, in all the games I can think of, whenever there's a god, you can pray to them, meet them, talk to them, fight them, something. There's always some kind of proof or at least tangible evidence that the deity does actually exist. Are there any games where the characters in the world believe in a god but, like religion in the real world, there's no real evidence that the god actually exists in the game universe?

I can't think of a single one. There may be games set in the real world, where real-world religions are present (though I can't even think of those at the moment), but no fictional ones that I know of. I can vaguely remember some minor characters mentioning "the gods" which are never proven to be real, but these characters are always represented as being in some way "primitive" or backwards.

This is my theory, anyway. That any widely-believed-in god of a culture which is shown to be "civilized" or advanced is always proven to be real somehow. I'm just checking to make sure I haven't missed a big exception before I do any professional writing on the subject.

Thanks in advance!

[karhell]

I could be mistaken, but the Dragon Quest games (at least DQ8, which I played most) probably count. There are numerous references to the Goddess, and churches everywhere but IIRC no hard evidence to her existence.

[Nick K]

Pillars of eternity has a weird take on the topic. I'll use spoiler tags because this is a massive spoiler for the end of the game's story:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The game has gods, which quite clearly exist - the player even talks to them at one point.
However, later on it turns out that the gods "aren't real" - an ancient civilisation discovered there were no gods, and so it made artificial ones.

However, it's debatable about how "unreal" the gods really are. They definitely exist and have godlike powers, even if they were created by humans. I read a blog post that gets quite incredulous about this and goes into a lot of detail: http://johnswritersblock.com/2015/04/20/pillars-of-eternity-ending-review/

Edit: I've just skimmed my steam library, and I can't find even a single game that specifies a religion without providing any proof, other than real-world ones.

Edit2: For real-world religion examples there's things like the Civilisation games, CK2 (although it has a few "supernatural" events like the demon child series), and the Tropico series where you need to satisfy your islanders desire for religious services but there aren't miracles or anything.

Final Edit: Fallout 2 includes a presumably-Christian priest npc and a cult based on Scientology, and I don't think it gives any evidence of either religion being true.

[TempAcc]

Tons of games seem to do this, mostly RPGs, in a way or another.
Fallout New Vegas has that ghoul cult who believe they're being divinely guided to a place full of radiation where they can live in peace. I believe Fallout 3 also has similar things. In general, all fallout games have this.
Wasteland also has a faction of cultists that resemble fundamental protestant christians.
The Ur Quan Masters (Star Control 2) also does this in regards to some alien races, which have cults but no clear indication of the existence of their gods. You even get to pretend you're the gods of a certain alien race at one point. I believe Mass Effect also has similar examples.
King of Dragon pass also has this. While blessings, magic and related god stuff do actualy work/seem to exist, there's nothing in the game that outright proves the actual existence of said gods.
Spore also does this. You can create a theocratic civilization but you never find any hint of the existence of gods or anything like that.
Some Fire Emblem games (maybe all, can't say for sure since I haven't played all of them) also have worship of gods and temples in them, but no clear proof of their existence. There are dragons and demons and other powerful things, but no explicit evidence of gods. In one game, a very powerful demon even pretends to be a god to cause people to release him with the power of their worship.
Odallus: The Dark Call does mention gods at several points, but due to the plot, its hard to say if said gods arent/weren't just really powerful beings using stuff like the Odallus.

[Sappho]

Tons of games seem to do this, mostly RPGs, in a way or another.
Fallout New Vegas has that ghoul cult who believe they're being divinely guided to a place full of radiation where they can live in peace. I believe Fallout 3 also has similar things. In general, all fallout games have this.
Wasteland also has a faction of cultists that resemble fundamental protestant christians.
The Ur Quan Masters (Star Control 2) also does this in regards to some alien races, which have cults but no clear indication of the existence of their gods. You even get to pretend you're the gods of a certain alien race at one point. I believe Mass Effect also has similar examples.
King of Dragon pass also has this. While blessings, magic and related god stuff do actualy work/seem to exist, there's nothing in the game that outright proves the actual existence of said gods.
Spore also does this. You can create a theocratic civilization but you never find any hint of the existence of gods or anything like that.
Some Fire Emblem games (maybe all, can't say for sure since I haven't played all of them) also have worship of gods and temples in them, but no clear proof of their existence. There are dragons and demons and other powerful things, but no explicit evidence of gods. In one game, a very powerful demon even pretends to be a god to cause people to release him with the power of their worship.
Odallus: The Dark Call does mention gods at several points, but due to the plot, its hard to say if said gods arent/weren't just really powerful beings using stuff like the Odallus.

Most of this sort of reaffirms my hypothesis: if there's a religion and there's no evidence that the gods exist (either you meet them, fight them, or your prayers have some sort of result), it's never the religion of the player character. Whenever there's a character or group of characters who believe in a god that can't be proven, it's always some kind of crazy cult.

What I'm looking for (and don't expect to find) is a game world where there is a religion similar to the ones in the real world - a lot of people believe in it, the culture is built around it, the main character takes the existence of the god seriously, and yet there is absolutely not a single shred of evidence that the god exists (and asking for proof is a sign of poor character). Prayers are not answered, magic cannot be gotten from the god, there is no physical form to point to and say "yeah, of course he's real, he's right over there."

The question isn't really whether the god is "truly" a "god" in the way many people believe in a god today. It's whether the religion in the game is founded on nothing more than some guy saying "I had a dream and god came and he's TOTALLY real but also he'll never, ever do anything to directly influence the world, so I can't prove it, but trust me, he's totally real" and the guy writes a book and it becomes a major world power. This does not happen in games, as far as I can find. Somehow, sane, rational video game characters never base a religion on anything but tangible evidence - piss off the god and something bad happens, be nice to the god and you can cast healing spells.

Religions in games seem to be divided into:
-There is a god. She's right over there. Be nice to her or she'll kick your ass.
-There is a god. We pray to him and we get points/spells/healing.
-Some crazy cult-ish or “primitive” (or at least non-human) group believes in a god, but the PC (and the player) knows better than to buy into that nonsense. It's always a “haha, look at the stupid fools believing in a god that isn't real!” sort of situation.

I've never seen a game where there is a religion that the PC believes in, where you base your decisions around possible consequences in an afterlife which may or may not exist, where you never get any confirmation that the religion either is or isn't true.

If in a game there are dragons/demons/genies/whatever with massively super-human powers which are worshipped by humans and called "gods", that's still something with a basis in the game world's reality. "There's a god - he's right over there." The definition of "god" is not important here so much as whether there is a religion based on nothing more than an idea, which the main character believes in but which does absolutely nothing for the character.

By the way, I do have a good reason for asking this - I've gotten a commission to write an article on the topic and I want to make sure my hypothesis is sound before writing it. If there are exceptions, I obviously want to address them. And all that you've posted so far (all of you) has been very helpful at helping me organize my thoughts. So thanks everyone! Keep it coming!

[Bouchart]

Well there was also Final Fantasy Tactics.  There was St. Ajora, who most thought was a god but in reality was just a demon, and the existence of other gods isn't really discussed or if there actually was a real god called St. Ajora.  The Glabados church was a mainstream religion and not some bizarre cult. 

My details are a bit hazy since it's been a few years since I've played through it.  To a lesser extent Vagrant Story is similar.

[debvon]

Crusader Kings 2! Although I don't think that counts since it's based off of real world religions.

Sunless Sea perhaps? The undersea dwellers believe in various gods that don't really have a physical form or manifest themselves (outside of insanity). I guess there are times in the game where characters associate events to these deities but it's never actually proven to be them. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Doesn't Dragon Age have some sort of religious organization that worships some god that doesn't actually manifest in any way? They persecute mages and all that. If you play as a templar (or whatever the class is called) you technically follow that religion.

You've got a good point though I've never really thought about this.

[TempAcc]

Well there was also Final Fantasy Tactics.  There was St. Ajora, who most thought was a god but in reality was just a demon, and the existence of other gods isn't really discussed or if there actually was a real god called St. Ajora.  The Glabados church was a mainstream religion and not some bizarre cult. 

My details are a bit hazy since it's been a few years since I've played through it.  To a lesser extent Vagrant Story is similar.

Vagrant Story does have a stablished church that is very similar/based on the catholic church, but there's never any evidence of any god, altough magic, demons and ghosts are very much real.

[Sappho]

Thanks for the examples, guys, I'll investigate them more. The Dragon Age one does actually sound like he kind of thing I mean. But if you play as a templar, do you get any special powers from your religion, or is it purely an idea? That is relevant to the article I plan to write. So far that seems to be the only example, although the Sunless Sea ones might qualify as well.

The Final Fantasy Tactics one isn't what I mean - they think it's a god, it turns out to be a demon - that's just quibbling over the definition of "god". The point is, there was a powerful being that people worshiped, not just a religion based on nothing but an idea.

Not sure about the Vagrant Story one. I'll have to look into it more closely. I'm not familiar with that game.

[nenjin]

Vagrant Story doesn't count by your metrics. The PC has no religion to speak of. There's no central deity in the story (that I remember) other than "God" and his merry band of murdering Church knights. That said, it's one of my favorite games of all time for the story and setting.

Sunless Sea kinda counts. There are maybe-gods, many people believe in them, the player character can make offerings to them. But if you're looking for any sort of plot or resolution to that situation, you won't find it in Sunless Sea.

[Niveras]

Thanks for the examples, guys, I'll investigate them more. The Dragon Age one does actually sound like he kind of thing I mean. But if you play as a templar, do you get any special powers from your religion, or is it purely an idea? That is relevant to the article I plan to write. So far that seems to be the only example, although the Sunless Sea ones might qualify as well.

You kind of get powers but it is explained to be from the lycium injections - so magic - and not from the Creator god. (Yes, no surprise, templars use magic to anti-magic the bad magic-ers, the hypocrites). But it also depends on how much you believe of backstory/mythos/in-game lore as being true. Ostensibly a god created spirits, wasn't pleased, created man, man became arrogant and invaded the spirit world physically. God became angry and said "I'm outie" and then we have the Chantry, who believe in the creator and that mankind must atone for that sin (somehow, presumably by everyone believing in their doctrine), but until that happens he's hands off in everything.

Some of that history is actually really recent in the DA timeline, within the last two thousand years. Suffice to say some of that could either be played up into myth, or even entirely fabricated, despite the connection magic and the darkspawn have with to spirit world and how that would follow from taking that account as a true history of creation. Furthermore, there are some actors in the present-day DA who were alive and active at the time of that sin, so it might end up being that the Creator god does actually exist and thus wouldn't be what you're looking for.

The elves, at least, also have their own pantheon, though I don't know the details. I think the qunari do as well.

.

Bastion has gods, represented by statues/icons, and they do have an effect on the world (generally adding challenge to the game) but it is unclear if they actually exist as some kind of entity, whether people worshiped them, or if they even had an effect if people prayed to them. They could just be mundane icons with no actual powers within the Bastion universe, played up into some supernatural entity (think worshipping the dawn, or summer, for example) and their function within the Bastion game is entirely as a gameplay mechanic only.

[Sappho]

Thanks for the examples, guys, I'll investigate them more. The Dragon Age one does actually sound like he kind of thing I mean. But if you play as a templar, do you get any special powers from your religion, or is it purely an idea? That is relevant to the article I plan to write. So far that seems to be the only example, although the Sunless Sea ones might qualify as well.

You kind of get powers but it is explained to be from the lycium injections - so magic - and not from the Creator god. (Yes, no surprise, templars use magic to anti-magic the bad magic-ers, the hypocrites). But it also depends on how much you believe of backstory/mythos/in-game lore as being true. Ostensibly a god created spirits, wasn't pleased, created man, man became arrogant and invaded the spirit world physically. God became angry and said "I'm outie" and then we have the Chantry, who believe in the creator and that mankind must atone for that sin (somehow, presumably by everyone believing in their doctrine), but until that happens he's hands off in everything.

Some of that history is actually really recent in the DA timeline, within the last two thousand years. Suffice to say some of that could either be played up into myth, or even entirely fabricated, despite the connection to magic and the darkspawn have with the spirit world and how that would follow from taking that account as a true history of creation. Furthermore, there are some actors in the present-day DA who were alive and active at the time of that sin, so it might end up being that the Creator god does actually exist and thus wouldn't be what you're looking for.

The elves, at least, also have their own pantheon, though I don't know the details. I think the qunari do as well.

This is exactly what I was looking for: a religion based around an idea or a story which is taken seriously by the protagonists but for which we have no evidence. IE, the same as real-life religions. So far, this does appear to be the one example. So now I will have to explore why this game, and (apparently) only this game, does this, and why other games don't.

Bastion has gods, represented by statues/icons, and they do have an effect on the world (generally adding challenge to the game) but it is unclear if they actually exist as some kind of entity, whether people worshiped them, or if they even had an effect if people prayed to them. They could just be mundane icons with no actual powers within the Bastion universe, played up into some supernatural entity (think worshipping the dawn, or summer, for example) and their function within the Bastion game is entirely as a gameplay mechanic only.

The statues are real, and they have a tangible effect on the world - therefore, not what I'm looking for. Actually, I'm finding it interesting how many answers I'm getting that say "but it's not a REAL god", even though I keep saying that's not the point. Says something to me about the mentality of game players (and presumably people in general) when it comes to religion and the word "god". But in any case all these examples are perfect fodder for my article, so thanks!

[Virtz]

It's semi-historical, but there's this indie RPG called Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome, where you play as a germanic barbarian in 12 B.C.. There is a religion, you believe in it, you can give sacrifices to the gods and do things that please or displease them, but all the "magic" is pure superstition, and its effectiveness is dependent on the belief and convincingness of the caster. IIRC possibly also the belief of the target (Belief is a stat in this game).

Basically you're pretending to be throwing hexes at people who believe they work even though they don't actually do anything.

[puke]

Dwarf Fortress prior to the addition of Lycanthropy and Vampires.   You could go to temples, talk to priests, pray to gods.. and get no answer.

Several games have the trope where there are gods that turn out to be transcendent beings or ascended heroes or ancient progenators or something.  Not divine, but something else?

It sounds like this is now what you're after, but there there are tons of games where the gods are not actually divine.

Games with a more historical bent are rife with non-present deities:

Mount and Blade, for example.  There are a few mentions of religion, but it does not do anything.  The Viking Conquest expansion makes it more present and has loyalty / morale effects for your troops, but praying does not actually do anything besides make people feel good.

I have not played the Assassins' Creed games, but I understand it has some religious stuff going on, and might fit the bill.  Again, quasi-historical. 

Probably the Vampire games, the "Vampire the Masquerade" franchise makes nod to Christianity and the curse of Cain, but is it ever proven?  Is it certain that it isn't just a bunch of bunk, and that first ancient vampire was not actually cast out from the garden of eden?  Who knows.  Other vampy type games are likely similar, vaguely religious overtones with no direct evidence as long as you can justify the supernatural some other way.

I don't play zombie games, but I'm guessing that some of the immersive RP heavy / story heavy ones have religious protagonists. 

Those are all historical or quasi historical RPGs.  Does the historical aspect disqualify it?  Do you want a purely fictitious-fictitious god, rather than a historical-fictitious god?

4X games like Civ and Total War often have religion.  It might have an impact on your society in some cultural sense, providing bonuses and penalties to various kinds of development... but the gods themselves are not doing anything.

Again, usually historical and not RPGs.  but they are games and religion is a central element.

[Neonivek]

Final Fantasy Tactics is a rather sizable one... To an extent depending on your outlook.

All magic comes from a source of faith and your belief determines not only how adept you are in using it but how affected you are as well.

And while there are demons and god like entities... You never actually see "The god"... and all the holy artifacts are of dubious origin.

Likewise the Ogre series. It has heavy religious overtones and even includes Angels... but to my knowledge the series never gives you solid affirm proof of any real god beyond extremely powerful beings masquerading as them.

In both these series it really could go either way.

Also YES the Dragon Quest series is a HUGE one. Only one game in its entire series basically went "Yes the almighty one exists", and that is because the entire game is based upon it.

And... It never challenges this ambiguity. One Priest stands up to the major villain with a cross in his hands saying that he is protected, and the game makes sure that something occurs to make him drop his guard.