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Author Topic: Games with deities that aren't proven to exist via the game's story/mechanics?  (Read 6618 times)

puke

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Xenosaga series, several main antagonists (and innumerable minor) are adherents to a religion, no evidence is ever provided that their belief system is true or false (the plot is incredibly dense however, and it is possible that something slipped past me)

Edit: I want to say that the Nisan Sect in Xenogears also falls into this category, but their actual beliefs are never clearly represented as separate from the faith of the majority, so maybe.

I had a girlfriend who was playing that when EpIII came out... I thought there was some sort of whacky business about one of the main characters being a direct descendant of Christ or something like that.. Or a reincarnation of Mary Magdalene.  I don't remember exactly, but it was over the top crazy.
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NullForceOmega

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It's actually massively more convoluted than that even, but explaining it would take several pages, and would require an in depth analysis of the meta-physics of that universe.

Edit: and it should be noted that there are many religions present in that setting, so even if the Judeo-Christian beliefs fall into the 'not acceptable' branch here, the rest don't automatically fail.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:42:02 am by NullForceOmega »
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puke

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Yeah, check this out:  http://xenosaga.wikia.com/wiki/Xenosaga_Episode_III:_Also_sprach_Zarathustra

They're driving the bus to crazy town.
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TempAcc

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Xeno saga is gnosticism mixed with neon genesis evangelion with the whole "lol metaphysics" thing turned up to eleven. There is something close to god in it, though. At least in the first game's ending.
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NullForceOmega

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Nope.  the wave existence has nothing to do with god.  That is purely human speculation, and until Monolith deigns to actually answer a question for once, that's all it will ever be.

Edit: that wiki (while it does provide a very good synopsis of the plot) is a mess.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:48:40 am by NullForceOmega »
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.

TempAcc

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NullForceOmega

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Xenosaga is dense as neutronium, but completely understandable once you grasp that everyone involved with the game (yourself included) is wrong.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.

i2amroy

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Honestly I think the problem you are running into here is more of a general culture opposition and conservation of detail working together to make things not show up more than anything that is actually indicative of some sort of trend. I mean if I'm a religious person making a game I probably don't want to highlight the fact that there isn't a bit of a shred of evidence for my fictional religion; such a thing is far to close to what real opponents of religion do all the time. Additionally we're seeing a hard conservation of detail on top of this. For religion to be really worth mentioning, it probably has to play on the story at some point, else pretty much the only times it's going to be showing up are in offhand mentions. That means if we want any sort of "serious" appearance of religion it's going to certainly be a main focus of the story, and that limits our choices drastically, and honestly the only plots involving religion seriously that don't outright go one way or another that I can think of are:
1) A story about a person struggling to stay faithful in the lack of evidence
2) A political story investigating corruption in a religious organization
3) A story about someone's conversion to a religion

2 is probably not going to have said religion match the protagonist's religion, and stories 1 and 3, while matching common religious media plots, are honestly pretty weak stories on their own.

It's basic conservation of detail, if the player's religion or an organization's religion isn't important to the plot, then it's something that can (and should) probably be cut out to emphasize the important parts, and will almost certainly not be mentioned more than in passing (which is why we have tons more games where religion is simply not mentioned at all). If the religion is important, then it's usually either focusing on the human side of things, or it's focusing on the religion itself, which tends to lead to plots that are either trivial propaganda, extremely controversial, or actually come out and declare the god's existence or not. As such I really feel that the best you are going to get in that sense are going to be things like a fair number of the Fire Emblem games where people toss around the words "goddess" in casual conversation or curses to note that it really is a widespread religion without ever giving any evidence for or against them (yes, I know about Radiant Dawn as an exception to that, and I'd like to note that just because priests are the common staff wielders in those games doesn't mean that they are wielding "holy" magic, sages can wield staves too, and staffs aren't any different from tomes in their notably vague source), or you are going to have games that look like any of the many religious propaganda games, which pretty much have never met any sort of real commercial success.

TL;DR: I'd add one more category to this:
Religions in games seem to be divided into:
-There is a god. She's right over there. Be nice to her or she'll kick your ass.
-There is a god. We pray to him and we get points/spells/healing.
-Some crazy cult-ish or “primitive” (or at least non-human) group believes in a god, but the PC (and the player) knows better than to buy into that nonsense. It's always a “haha, look at the stupid fools believing in a god that isn't real!” sort of situation.
-Games in which religion is widespread and believed in seriously, but simply isn't relevant to the plot, and thus doesn't show up much

These are usually going to be games where all magic has a confirmed or heavily implied single source (such as in Fire Emblem, or many of the Tales games), since the default is often to have "holy" magic like healing come straight from the gods (thus implying their existence), but they do exist.
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puke

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I'm pretty sure the main character in Hitman is religious and takes it seriously, and that there is no in-game miracles or other evidence of god.  Have not played the whole series though.
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Neonivek

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I don't think the Dominions pretenders are "fake" gods. They are beings with vast powers, whose very presence affects reality around them. I think there's good reason to grant them bona fide divine status. It's just that in the Dominions world this status is easier to achieve than one would expect in normal circumstances.

I'd totally agree with you... if the game's didn't strongly imply that their vast powers actually came from pretending to be a god.

In otherwords in the Dominions setting. If you successfully get enough people to worship you as a god... you actually become one.
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Shadowlord

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I don't recall there being any evidence in Skyrim (or Oblivion or Morrowind) that Talos was divine. Of course, I didn't do all the quests in Oblivion or Morrowind and memory is fallible.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 02:10:57 pm by Shadowlord »
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puke

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I don't recall there being any evidence in Skyrim (or Oblivion or Morrowind) that Talos was divine. Of course, I didn't do all the quests in Oblivion or Morrowind and memory is fallible.

Yeah, but the 9 divines *exist*.  They communicate with mortals, and can do stuff in game.  You can meet and fight Daedra, which are their direct counterparts.

Some people in game reject their worship (either because they think they're just daedra in another form... which they sort of are... or because they prefer to follow another god instead) but no one says they're not real. 

Talos is actually an ascended mortal, Tiber Septim the first.  There were originally 8 divines.  I dont know if you ever communicate directly with him, but since you can meet other ascended beings I dont think its that far fetched.

T.E.S. is a really interesting case though, because the religion has a bunch of misinformation and schisms in it.  You are asked -- especially in Morrowind -- to believe in things that are demonstrably FALSE.  It's not just asking you to believe in an unfounded myth, its asking you to perpetuate the status quo or to be an agent of change based on multiple versions of events.

None of it has to do with faith (in the sense that faith means unfounded belief), really.  More to do with agendas.
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Dirst

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I don't recall there being any evidence in Skyrim (or Oblivion or Morrowind) that Talos was divine. Of course, I didn't do all the quests in Oblivion or Morrowind and memory is fallible.
In Oblivion, the game goes out of its way to explain that not all of the Daedra (demon) worshipers are evil.  One of them actually says to the player (paraphrasing) "Gods are supposed to be powerful and everything, but Daedra actually do stuff."  Since the Daedra are divine beings (i.e., not created by the god that created the mortal world) with worshipers in their own right, and the player physically meets them, that excludes this game from Sappho's criteria.  Maybe everything else in the mythology is wrong, but the Daedra are really real.
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Cthulhu

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I don't think the Dominions pretenders are "fake" gods. They are beings with vast powers, whose very presence affects reality around them. I think there's good reason to grant them bona fide divine status. It's just that in the Dominions world this status is easier to achieve than one would expect in normal circumstances.

I'd totally agree with you... if the game's didn't strongly imply that their vast powers actually came from pretending to be a god.

In otherwords in the Dominions setting. If you successfully get enough people to worship you as a god... you actually become one.

If everyone worships you you are a god.  If you command vast powers and throngs of believers, which all pretenders do from the start of the game, you're not pretending. The issue is that "god" as a concept is ill-defined and basically everyone in a given discussion about it has a different idea of what it means.

But no, in the case of dominions the etymology is pretty clear.  The word "pretender" in that context, of gods fighting over a throne, is clearly in the sense of a pretender to the throne, which is synonymous with "claimant."  And that definition is older than and unrelated to our modern definition of the word.
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Teneb

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I don't recall there being any evidence in Skyrim (or Oblivion or Morrowind) that Talos was divine. Of course, I didn't do all the quests in Oblivion or Morrowind and memory is fallible.
All divine figures in TES are powerful enough to qualify for diety status even if there is no actual true gods in TES other than maybe the Godhead. You also get to meet Talos twice, once in Morrowind, and again in the Oblivion expansion Knights of the Nine (maybe, but probably). Talos is, in fact, one of the strongest gods around.
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