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Author Topic: Anyone do Model U.N.  (Read 5130 times)

mainiac

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2015, 09:31:46 am »

He was president in all years before 2008.

King George IV.

Yes, those traits are probably quite prevalent in any human population, and yes, they probably do correlate with having Nazi-sympathies, as any 13-year-old could tell you. But the crucial question is, does this test measure those traits or something else altogether?

+1

I also found this thing. Don't know what that is.

Nor do I.  Of the five schools they identify as the mainstream, only 1 of them (behavioral) is something I can recall reading a single paper about.  (Heterodox is such a vague term I dont even count it).  And there is hardly a tyranny of behavioral economics in the academic work.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2015, 11:24:27 am »

I also found this thing. Don't know what that is.

Nor do I.  Of the five schools they identify as the mainstream, only 1 of them (behavioral) is something I can recall reading a single paper about.  (Heterodox is such a vague term I dont even count it).  And there is hardly a tyranny of behavioral economics in the academic work.
I think you misread that bit. The Wiki article says: "Post-Autistic Economics (PAE) is a movement of different groups (critical of the current economics mainstream): behavioral economics, heterodox economics, feminist economics, green economics, and econo-physics." Those five schools are precisely the ones that are counted in the category of Post-Autistic, post-post(post)postmodern Woo-Economics.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2015, 12:53:37 pm »

So are there any detailed specifications for the UN game this experiment played?  Without those we can't really avoid the suspicion that it's self-fulfilling.  Global politics and logistics are more complicated than can be easily simulated in a high school game it would be very easy to inject your ideas into it.

And of course, the question of whether its results are useful is valid.  Like Quiamus said, if you told me you put a bunch of self-identified Nazis in control of a geopolitical simulator I'd assume things went poorly.  Are the conclusions it's drawing interesting?  It seems like it sets up the premises to imply the results in an obvious and tautological way.  Leaders lead, followers follow, people we've defined in the abstract as being shitty geopolitical negotiators do a shitty job of geopolitical negotiation.
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Reelya

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2015, 09:38:35 pm »

I tracked down the site for the games' creators here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020805124207/www.mts.net/~gcg/index.html

But it's not something created by the guys who made the RWA test, they're completely independent developments. So that's not a factor of the game being hand-crafted to prove this result, since that wouldn't make sense. What actually happened was the RWA guy tested his own class of psych students, then enrolled them into the existing game being run by other people, divided without their knowledge into high-RWA and low-RWA. So he's run them through someone else's set-up purely using the RWA scores as the decider. If the games did in fact have vastly different outcomes, we can then say the RWA test predicts pretty well what the outcome will be, meaning it has at least that much validity as a predictive scale. I'd say a big social game like that would correlate pretty well with how people are going to work together once they're in the workforce etc. People who want to be bullies and leaders in the prac are likely to also want to be bullies and leadership in other social situations.

Also, the point stands that they're not "self identified nazis" as in card-carrying neo nazis who were scouted out. These were regular college kids who just happened to score highly on a quiz which correlates with those attitudes. The best evidence that the scale is useful is how much it lines up with things like the Milligram experiment. Which actually makes a lot of sense, as the factors expressed in the Milligram experiment are virtually identical to the factors measured in the RWA test - submission to authority, aggression sanctioned by authority, and imposing societal norms on other people. Milligram if you recall involves a scientist ordering you to eletrocute someone if they do poorly on a test. So it involves whether you're willing to punish other people in the name of authority for not conforming, which is exactly what the RWA test was designed to measure.

And a test that detects latent nazis without them actually realizing you're asking whether they think like nazis, is obviously a useful concept that you can further work from.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 09:54:37 pm by Reelya »
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Frumple

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2015, 10:12:05 pm »

... know spellcheck gotcha, but just a minor heads up before it tweaks someone's braincells: Milgram has no repeat letters in it 'cept the ms.
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My Name is Immaterial

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2015, 11:05:07 pm »

I don't see how an experiment with no control group or repetition is expected to demonstrate anything.
But I guess that's normal for psychology.[/shotsfired][/interdiscipnilaryconflict]

Cthulhu

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2015, 12:03:51 am »

I'm a little drunk so I can't really think straight.

But yes, they're self-identified.  The quiz is so flagrant and dogwhistle heavy that no one reading it could possibly fail to understnad what htey're saying yes to.

Basically the experiment to me reads like "ABSTRACT:  We define certain classes of poeple and their behavior.  CONCLUSION:  They behave the way we defined them to behave."

It's like, Texas sharpshooter?  I dunno, I'm drunk.  My drunk evaluation of the experiment is basically

P: Nazis are bad
C: Nazis are bad

Which is a priori true but not exactly useful.
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Reelya

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2015, 12:36:56 am »

Well a lot of "normal" people do answer yes to all the questions. I would agree with you if the test was so narrow that e.g. only 1% of people responded to it. Then it would not be a social phenomena worth looking into. But a lot more people than a mere 1% agree with the statements, so there is something worth researching there.

So, if you agree the test measures something concrete. Well, then if you look at the guy's book, all his subsequent research has been "well, how much does that predict how people will act or react to a huge bunch of different things". Knowing how people who score highly on the test will act in different situation has value in itself, as soon as you accept that those people are fairly common in society. It also has implications for job selection. High RWA people might be good in particular jobs where they need to adhere to rules but aren't given any authority over other people.

If you just say "yeah, nazi-types are bad, so therefore we don't need a test to detect nazi-type people because we already know they're bad" that basically make no sense. You don't study something by not having means to detect it. How do they tick? They're pretty common, so how can you best work with them, even harness their personality traits in a positive way? You can only ask those questions once you have a metric for finding the people you're after. if you can tell them apart you can do research and make inferences, instead of pure guesswork and just shrugging your shoulders as to why people in the same experiments do different things.

One example of this research which has real applications is that RWA-types like to conform. Altemeyer did an experiment where he opinion surveyed his class, then he presented supposed "average opinions" as fact, and then re-tested the group. The high-RWAs moderated their answers towards the "average" answer twice as much as low-RWA types. So it turns out there's useful information right there about the "Nazi-type follower" if you want to call them that. If an authority figure presents a new "norm" to them, they adjust their behaviour to fit that norm, even if that new norm is far more "liberal" than what they thought before. This suggests many conservatives who say they support gays are doing more than just lip service. If their own party leaders and the TV are saying that accepting gays is the norm, then RWA types are the ones most likely to be influenced by that. So it's much more nuanced than saying they are reactionary nazis. They're more like "right-wing sheeple" that can be controlled once you know what makes them tick.

A really amusing one was when altemeyer told a class about the RWA scale, and got opinions on where they'd like to be on the scale. People who previously tested low to medium on the RWA scale both agreed they'd like to be on the low-end. i.e. they saw not being authoritarian as a good thing. But the high RWA types professed the wish to be medium-RWA. i.e. in the middle of the scale. So they're so conformist that they want to be in the middle of the scale of conformism. Which is highly ironic. But you can see how someone who's obsessed with conformism and not standing out can be easily manipulated.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 01:03:32 am by Reelya »
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Ghazkull

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2015, 07:21:15 am »

But i can say the same about a non-conformist. A non-conformist is so obssessed with standing out that i can manipulate him that way. I tell him that the average opinion is a) and he will choose b) so he doesn't fit in with the herd. So what? Thats nothing outstanding here.

anyway i think we derailed the thread pretty thoroughly. I'm still curious however how does Model U.N / Global Change Game work?
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mainiac

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2015, 08:26:08 am »

I'm still curious however how does Model U.N / Global Change Game work?

As near as I can tell it's proprietary so the rulebook has never been published.  It's only the one group that runs it.

^^Another good mark of science, btw, keep the testing procedure proprietary so no one can reproduce the results.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Sheb

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2015, 08:29:12 am »

I quite dig your new avatar text mainiac.
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mainiac

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2015, 08:45:12 am »

It's like a month old?  I swear, Sheb, I could wear sackcloth and you wouldn't notice.  :'(
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Ghazkull

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2015, 08:55:09 am »

Okay lets figure out what we have:

10 Regions á 7 players to a total of 70
each Region has a Leader.
each player represents 100 million people at the beginning.
Resources generated are: Money ( in the form of Coins), Armies (apparently only represented singularly) and Nuclear Weapons.
As well as an undeterminate amount of resources.
Furthermore Food Supply, Employment and Health Care are necessary resources for the survival of your population. If all three are gone, you are done for.
Regions can declare population as refugees, which can be taken in by other countries but if not, die on the sea.

each Region apparently also has Issues unique to them:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020707202956/http://www.mts.net/~gcg/resources/regions/index.html

apparently people get together and try to find solutions to which the GMs say if that is feasible or not and punish/reward the people for their efforts and ideas.
Thats at least as far as i can figure it out.
Anybody else found something out?
I still don't know how resources work, how good or bad outcomes are determined, how war works and how nuclear war works. I presume from the wiki page that its simply determined by who has the most army tokens.
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mainiac

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2015, 09:13:58 am »

Nuclear war is automatic game over.  No limited exchanges, the GMs just smack your noses and turn the clock back by two years after showing you a slideshow.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Cthulhu

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Re: Anyone do Model U.N.
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2015, 12:09:18 pm »

GMs choosing what strategies work sounds pretty iffy.  Sounds more and more like putting the answer before the question, taking your conclusion and designing an experiment that will inevitably produce your conclusion.

I feel like mock UN would work better as a rhetorical exercise with a single specific issue, where different regions have a sheet of objectives to accomplish and see how well the various groups work together to come to an agreement that pleases the various entities as well as possible.  Flex your debate skills pretty hard when you get Saudi Arabia and have to defend your right to execute apostates or something

This more simulationist approach is too complex, where the GMs arbitrate it's easy to imagine a GM seeing guys trying communism and just saying "communism doesn't work, +1 famine"

And then in this case writing a paper that uses the ruling you made to argue that communism leads to famine :3

EDIT:  was on the phone, typos and fast writing fixed.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 12:53:25 pm by Cthulhu »
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