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Author Topic: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration  (Read 831 times)

Mike_B20

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Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« on: October 04, 2015, 12:13:02 am »

I'm finding DF a bit of a micromanagement grind with the constant immigration waves and constant expansion to satisfy needs of the extra population.
Large populations also lead to frame-rate slowdown and memory problems for my system.

Is it possible to set POPULATION_CAP in the init file to a relatively low value for slower expansion and more casual and enjoyable gameplay?
I saw an old discussion elsewhere online about setting the value to "1"; apparently the first two waves of immigrants in the first year came regardless of the value of POPULATION_CAP, but things might be different in the later versions of DF.
Didn't work when I tried setting  "POPULATION_CAP:1"; there were zero immigrants the first year.

I'd like SOME immigrants but don't want the repetitive grind of building hundreds of new bedrooms; that's more like micromanagement hell than fun, imo.
I really enjoyed the slower pace and getting to know fewer dwarves individually; especially the Hunter trying to fell Boars with wooden crossbow bolts  :)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 03:36:29 am by Mike_B20 »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 02:43:03 am »

There are two relevant parameters, one cap for immigration and one for total population (generally reached through birth).
I set the total pop cap to 80 and I set the pop cap (immigration) to 30. As the population reaches above 20 I change the pop cap to be 10 above the current pop (save, exit, change, restart) until 60 which I leave as the final pop cap (sometimes increased to get the adult pop up to 60).
That means immigration waves are never larger than 10 (and they are usually 7-9). The 60:th immigrant frequently never shows up either.
This method gives me a nice paced immigration rate.
I use the Lazy Newb Pack that exports the pop values in the UI, but it shouldn't be hard to edit the underlying file instead.
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Number7

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2015, 07:33:18 am »

Do what i do, build a huge communal dining room and bedroom. you can fill it with beds. then screen every migrant that arrives for the best of the best and give them their own private rooms, dining halls, offices etc on a floor made of gold, silver, platnium, whatever wealth you have. the plebs handle the day to day automation such as making clothes, growing food etc.

the upper caste are majority military (with high attributes. i dont take tiny flimsy dwarves into my upper caste, they can join a B team of soldiers that act more as last ditch reserves than the true noble upper class warriors. a bit of self defense training also makes them work faster in their day to day work) with some special exceptions such as legendary smiths, those who earn their way to the glorious upper class.

that way you have a swarm of worker bees you can ignore, and a group you can get familiar with and pay attention to.

on a side note, if you change population values make sure to keep it over 80 or you wont get the full brunt of sieges coming at you

you can even use burrows to keep the peasants in their place with the exceptions of haulers who can jobs such as delivering the highest quality food to the stockpiles in the dining rooms of the upper class. the burrows will keep the plebs out of the way too, if you enjoy watching a solitary hunter out hunting boars with wooden ammo. Its good to give your upper class a good testing. i like to give mine puppies that i later butcher to harden them until they have no attachment to the world and live only for the glory of the mountainhome. the kind of hardened dwarves who would massacre their friends and family in a loyalty cascade and remain uncaring.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 07:36:29 am by Number7 »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2015, 07:54:52 am »

I forgot about the pop issues Number7 mentioned. There are a bunch of parameters that can be changed prior to world generation to reduce the pop reduction issues.
- init\world_gen.txt, TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER can be reduced to get attacks earlier than at a pop of 80 (I set it to 20).
- data\raw\objects\entity_default.txt has got a bunch of PROGRESS_TRIGGER_POP_SIEGE parameters (one per race) to allow the race in question to siege. 1 = 20, 2= 50, 3(default) = 80 (4 & 5 increase the numbers), while 0 disables the parameter. The other *_SIEGE parameters provide production/trade thresholds for sieges. A siege is permitted when one of these thresholds has been met. I set all the *_SIEGE parameters to 1.
- A certain threat seems to appear only when pop passes 80, and I haven't found any parameter to lower that. The same goes for were beasts.
- Black towers ignore all parameters. They can visit during the first summer (has happened to me. Mmm, Goblinite!).
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Daris

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 09:24:40 am »

I am playing a game now where I set my pop cap to 7, and strict pop cap to 200, and I got zero immigration waves.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 05:20:44 pm »

There are lots of options for Communal Happy Zones; statue gardens, dining rooms, rooms full of finely crafted cages, etc. Only nobles need personal attention, lots of normal Dwarves shouldn't mean micromanagement unless you really want it to. It just means everything gets done a lot quicker (balanced by fps death of course...)

Order beds, cabinets and whatever for new bedrooms with the manager. Keep normal dwarves away from the mounds of goblin corpses at the door.
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2015, 04:38:07 pm »

Anything 7 or under will stop migrants. If you set your cap to 8 in the beginning, you'll probably get one wave. Then when you've finished adjusting for them, just up your cap to a bit above your current one. AFAIK the soft cap doesn't control how many migrants you can get, it just gives the game a shut off number beyond which you won't get more waves.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2015, 02:40:33 am »

I've never gotten immigration waves that causes the pop cap to be exceeded. If anything, the waves seem to leave one or two "spare" positions. That's not a proof, though.
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taptap

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2015, 03:59:28 am »

I'd like SOME immigrants but don't want the repetitive grind of building hundreds of new bedrooms; that's more like micromanagement hell than fun, imo.
I really enjoyed the slower pace and getting to know fewer dwarves individually; especially the Hunter trying to fell Boars with wooden crossbow bolts  :)

Yes, it is. There used to be a delay in pop cap taking effect (tied to the yearly diplomat visit), this has been removed. I enjoy 20-30 dwarves most. Just enough to cover all industries with specialists and manageable enough to play really longtime. The default settings lead to 200 dwarves in 3 years and abandoning the embark soon after due to fps loss. Above 30 I start to lose track of my dwarves. When you get kids (and don't prevent that by strict pop cap) you can increase population pretty fast (a few years for births + 12 years to grow up) to 50, 80, 100 and higher from that starting level even with only a few couples. Pop cap itself can be easily changed and adjusted after world generation in a running fortress, if you want to. Pop cap massively changes gameplay (especially with low pop cap, but much higher strict pop cap, i.e. a sizeable fort grown biologically), without the option to substitute all losses with seasonal migrants you end up playing much more careful and with attention to detail. No more carelessly drowning half the fortress every other year or sending them unprepared to greet invaders.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 04:01:35 am by taptap »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 06:39:36 am »

When I started to experiment with reduced size fortresses I started with a pop cap of 30 and have gradually adjusted it upwards to 60. I've found that to be a point where I can have a full militia squad to mop up the invaders that camp around their captured leaders rather than attack and have dorfs covering all professions with reduced micro management otherwise required to get them to tend to their other professions (still have to at times, since hauling seems to be more interesting than e.g. cutting down trees). My strict pop cap of 80 has never been reached before I abandon the fortress due to my poor dorf matchmaking skills (despite me trying to get them to hook up).
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Wheeljack

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Re: Good value for POPULATION_CAP for a slower immigration
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2015, 02:26:11 pm »

I find 30 dwarves is a good number to get reasonable familiar with your dwarves.  It's usually what I wind up at after two years of in-game time. After that, I let natural births bump the population up (not to mention any kids that get dragged in by their parents). Once I get everyone settled, and good to go, I'll bump the population cap higher to get a few more waves. Any industry lacking at that point gets fleshed out and the rest are pretty much sent to beef up the current military.

I love spoiling my dwarves. and starting with lower numbers means I can spoil them relatively easily before it gets to a point where new comers are cannon fodder and haulers/engravers. My earliest dwarves are usually treated like royalty, regardless of their function or skillset. I go in this fashion for pop cap: 15:100, 20:100, 30:100, 50:100. I have, as of yet, never reached the strict pop cap of 100. Usually I have 50-60 adults running around and maybe 20 kids by the time I get bored of how smoothly everything is running and start anew.
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