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[LordBucket]

An issue I'd have with some of the suggestions is that they aren't realistic. If the message is that what slaughterhouses do is wrong, then the game should accurately depict them, not an exaggerated version. For example, if killing animals without anasethetic is illegal, then a game that implies it's what abbatoirs actually do would be manipulative and misleading.

It's possible you might be identifying yourself as a member of the game's target audience. Like Shadowlord points out, it is not illegal. And while I note you do say "if," your statement that the suggestions aren't realistic implies that you seem to think that it is illegal.

But, that's ok. "If" a possible player action is illgal in real life, have it be illegal in the game. But allow the player to do it, and have game mechanics whereby they might or might get caught. And if they're caught, then they're realistically fined, or shut down for repeat offenses. But allow the player to do it. And if they do it well, then allow them to get away with it. Remember, our goal here is to make a game, a good game, a good game that isn't preachy, and a good game that isn't preachy but nevertheless successfully delivers a message.

[Radio Controlled]

it is also inefficient

Ok then, I'll bite

Let me bite a little harder:

"We have the tools, and the technology to put an end to hunger. There is enough food to go around."

"During the food crisis in 2008 there was enough food for everyone in the world to have 2,700 kilocalories."

Food waste is a huge issue.

The efficiency of meat as far as feeding people doesn't particularly matter, there's more than enough to go around. So the argument shouldn't even be framed in that manner.

But even in a society with no waste, fact remains that using land for growing plants to feed animals is less efficient than using said plants to feed humans, meaning less land is needed when not eating meat. And this land that gets freed up can now be used for other, hopefully worthwile, endeavours.

[Shadowlord]

If you wanted a rationale for switching from meat to plants, producing meat requires a huge amount of water, but there are also crops that require a huge amount of water - like cotton, for instance - and crops that are grown with lots of water, but don't necessarily need to be.

See: https://projects.propublica.org/killing-the-colorado/story/what-you-need-to-know#

This lists numbers for water use by some crops: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/10/how-much-water-food-production-waste

[Bohandas]

it is also inefficient

Ok then, I'll bite

Let me bite a little harder:

"We have the tools, and the technology to put an end to hunger. There is enough food to go around."

"During the food crisis in 2008 there was enough food for everyone in the world to have 2,700 kilocalories."

Food waste is a huge issue.

The efficiency of meat as far as feeding people doesn't particularly matter, there's more than enough to go around. So the argument shouldn't even be framed in that manner.

But even in a society with no waste, fact remains that using land for growing plants to feed animals is less efficient than using said plants to feed humans, meaning less land is needed when not eating meat. And this land that gets freed up can now be used for other, hopefully worthwile, endeavours.

I'd rather have the hotdogs than the stadium

[Bohandas]

No one is going to be seriously heard if they attack Kosher.

That's probably the case, although I've never understood why. How is holdig the jews to the same standard as everyone else any different from making Kim Davis issue marriage licenses to gay couples; religion does not and should not grant you an exemption from the law (unless the law is specifically targeted at the religion; banning kosher slaughter specifically would be out of line, but it being de facto banned as a result of broader regulations regarding animal slaughter would not be)

[Nick K]

An issue I'd have with some of the suggestions is that they aren't realistic. If the message is that what slaughterhouses do is wrong, then the game should accurately depict them, not an exaggerated version. For example, if killing animals without anasethetic is illegal, then a game that implies it's what abbatoirs actually do would be manipulative and misleading.

It's possible you might be identifying yourself as a member of the game's target audience. Like Shadowlord points out, it is not illegal. And while I note you do say "if," your statement that the suggestions aren't realistic implies that you seem to think that it is illegal.

Well, I'm not an expert on abbatoirs, I had a quick google, and found a page on my country's government website that says:

"The welfare of animals at the time of slaughter or killing is covered by EU Directive 93/119 and UK regulations. These rules state that it is an offence to cause or permit an animal to suffer avoidable excitement, pain or suffering. Animals must be handled, stunned and killed using specific methods by licensed slaughtermen."

It looks like you're right in that this doesn't mean they have to be anaesthetised as such, as long as they're killed as painlessly as possible. Still, cutting corners so the animals suffer as they're killed seems like it'd be illegal, as would letting staff abuse the animals. There's exemptions for Kosher and Halal slaughter, but I don't know much about how they work.

If you want full efficiency in terms of calorie production, you'd want to go vertical farming, no more creating crops fro animals, no animals on land that can be used for plants and only have animals on land unsuitable for farming plants but that has enough vegetation to support animals.

Yup, there's a good environmental rationale for cutting down on meat consumption, and it's healthier too. Personally I've been trying to switch over to vegetarian meals or fake meat like Quorn for purely health reasons. In terms of efficiency, I've heard that insect protein is particularly good.

In terms of animal welfare though... I bet that if everyone went vegan then most livestock would just die. Some species might even become entirely extinct or endangered. There aren't many people who'd want a full-sized adult pig as a pet and I can't think of any pig products that don't involve killing it. Without being useful for humans, we wouldn't support them, and I don't think many farm pigs would survive if we just released the lot of them into the wild.

[Neonivek]

No one is going to be seriously heard if they attack Kosher.

That's probably the case, although I've never understood why. How is holdig the jews to the same standard as everyone else any different from making Kim Davis issue marriage licenses to gay couples; religion does not and should not grant you an exemption from the law (unless the law is specifically targeted at the religion; banning kosher slaughter specifically would be out of line, but it being de facto banned as a result of broader regulations regarding animal slaughter would not be)

Kin Davis didn't have to religiously marry Gay Couples (that would be ridiculous) but he cannot withhold marriage licenses. His religious rights weren't being trotted upon, only the legal rights the government gave him as a minister/priest/whateverheis. If he still wants the ability to give out marriage licenses he can't be choosey.

Kosher likely won't be impeded on because not only are there not a lot of Jews, fewer who care about Kosher (except for ceremonies), but it is a required religious practice that cannot be avoided... with a group that has a history of being marginalized and attacked. GOOD LUCK!

[LordBucket]

How is holdig the jews to the same standard as everyone else any different

I think most people tend to incorrectly assume that kosher standards are safer/nicer/cleaner/more humane/etc, rather than a largely weird and arbitrary set of rules.

[IronyOwl]

An issue I'd have with some of the suggestions is that they aren't realistic. If the message is that what slaughterhouses do is wrong, then the game should accurately depict them, not an exaggerated version. For example, if killing animals without anasethetic is illegal, then a game that implies it's what abbatoirs actually do would be manipulative and misleading.

Well, that depends on the style of the message. The broader idea of "When you're in charge of handling living things for money you tend to cut corners and stop treating them like living things" might be more workable and interesting than the more specific idea of "This is a Colton Industries R-6 Model Mushroom Bolt Stunner, a standard tool in over 30% of American slaughterhouses. Have some horrifying audio of pigs being murdered with it."

Well, I'm not an expert on abbatoirs

Well there's your first mistake.

It looks like you're right in that this doesn't mean they have to be anaesthetised as such, as long as they're killed as painlessly as possible. Still, cutting corners so the animals suffer as they're killed seems like it'd be illegal, as would letting staff abuse the animals. There's exemptions for Kosher and Halal slaughter, but I don't know much about how they work.

Abuse and erosion of vague money-costing guidelines tends to be pretty standard in business. I mean, if some industries can routinely get away with tweaking the "you have to pay your employees for their labor" setup, livestock comfort in their final hour is probably not going to be especially sacred.

[Neonivek]

Heck here is a freeken idea.

Start the game off as what you would think is a typical ranching game with a pig ranch that of course has a slaughter house.

Make it a decent game to make pigs happy and fat to get high quality meat with bigger pastures, wider cells, special equipment to kill them. Yet slowly offer upgrades that allows you to further and further make this moot. Really drive home that these cut corners are more and more lucrative as the pigs that used to have high happiness ratings will really have bottomed out ones.

[LordBucket]

Bonus points if the game is delivered in such a way that people have no clue that there's an intended message at all, but rather become gradually aware of a deep and unsettling sick feeling at the things they're choosing to do in pursuit of profit.

[Shadowlord]

Kin Davis didn't have to religiously marry Gay Couples (that would be ridiculous) but he cannot withhold marriage licenses. His religious rights weren't being trotted upon, only the legal rights the government gave him as a minister/priest/whateverheis. If he still wants the ability to give out marriage licenses he can't be choosey.

Kim Davis is a government employee and part of her job is issuing marriage licenses (Or, for now, not interfering with them being issued by her deputies). She's a county clerk, not a minister, priest, or whatever you're thinking. Her state doesn't have the ability to fire her, the voters can't attempt to recall her, and she refused to resign. So far she's managed to keep getting paid despite refusing to do part of her job, while attempting to paint herself as the victim. Of course, from her point of view, she was ordered to do something immoral* (Issue marriage licenses to gay people), and refused for that reason. Something something souls eternal damnation I guess.

* I understand her reasoning, but do not agree with it.

P.S.
There have been studies that have found that meat quality is higher when animals are relaxed and calm prior to being killed, and worse if they're stressed or panicked. I remember reading about them, anyways.

[Neonivek]

Well, that is significantly less ambiguous or controversial Shadowlord.

Kim Davis can't do her job.

[Cthulhu]

She took a legally binding oath to do her job.  The government is not a religious institution, she has no authority to do what she did on religious grounds.   She's also under court order to do her job.  I dunno what came of that after she got out of jail.

If she can't do her job she needs to do what anyone else who can't do their job does in such a position and resign.  Refusing to do the job she was elected to do and denying marriage licenses to legally qualifying couples is a gross abuse of the powers invested in her.

The religious right is a circus.  Nobody knows how hard it is to be a member of the world's biggest religion in a country where you can be any religion you want.

[ductape]

So many "absolutes" and ironically, half-truths in this thread. It is not possible to lump plants and animal production systems into two categories alone, there is a vast diversity of systems used throughout history and even today.

FACT: you can produce 1 lb of beef with 0 gallons on water. In fact, a properly managed cattle ranch can repair a fractured hydroligoccycle. Cows and increase vegetative growth of grasses and increase their root mass as the grass cycles through grazing and regeneration. At each cycle, carbon is sequestered and more carbon in the soil means more water storage.

In fact, cows managed properly, in other words managed along with the patterns of their natural habitat, can sequester more carbon than any other strategy we know, BY FAR.

Vegans beware, you might want to think critically and get your facts from a diversity of sources and evaluate them for yourselves.

Check out Alan Savory and the Marin Carbon Project.

http://savory.global/

http://www.marincarbonproject.org/

and me? I teach permaculture in California and I work with designing and implementing agricultural systems. I also like DF so there.

more about me: www.upisf.com

P.S. The "facts" vegans often throw around come from factory animals systems such as CAFOs. There are horrible nightmares and should not exist. Animal husbandry is an ancient practice among humans and when done right, has massive benefits for all life, including the animals used in the system.

Know Up.