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[UristMcDwarf]

would you play it? i've gathered a team to finally make the roguelike i've been putting off designing. Need to gauge interest. trying to make something like adventure mode in DF if it was the main focus of the game (no procedural world history, though.) how do you think an indiegogo campaign would fare?

[~Neri]

Interested. Magic should be wonderfully overpowered but difficult to learn and obtain though.

[Girlinhat]

Need more info.  Class based, magic system, companions, dungeons, equipment upgrade/repairs/sockets, anything like any of this figured out?

[UristMcDwarf]

Need more info.  Class based, magic system, companions, dungeons, equipment upgrade/repairs/sockets, anything like any of this figured out?

woulda said this all in the OP, but i was busy talking to the dev

1. No, attribute and skill based.
2. First poster hit it on the head.
3. Planned, but it might be a bit tough.
4. Yes.
5. Equipment durability is planned, so repairs are logical. Sockets are planned.

[Frumple]

... well, there's obviously interest. Adventure mode style roguelikes/rpgs are fairly often mentioned in quite a few places as something folks would like to see.

The question of whether there's commercial interest is a significantly different one, though, especially if there's not already some kind of demo/teaser project available for perusal. If you're trying to get money from it, presentation is probably going to be a pretty serious issue, arguably even above and beyond the mechanical aspects. Without some kind of name or reputation, you'll probably do substantially better on the funding front if you've already got something to show off -- people are honestly fairly fed up with promises that go nowhere. They want to see something before the judge, heh.

[UristMcDwarf]

... well, there's obviously interest. Adventure mode style roguelikes/rpgs are fairly often mentioned in quite a few places as something folks would like to see.

The question of whether there's commercial interest is a significantly different one, though, especially if there's not already some kind of demo/teaser project available for perusal. If you're trying to get money from it, presentation is probably going to be a pretty serious issue, arguably even above and beyond the mechanical aspects. Without some kind of name or reputation, you'll probably do substantially better on the funding front if you've already got something to show off -- people are honestly fairly fed up with promises that go nowhere. They want to see something before the judge, heh.

That's why i've got our dev working on a demo to promo it, heh

[kulik]

If I'm to play something like adventure mode in DF, I will play adventure mode in DF. You will have to work hard for months, if not years till you can provide at least a fraction of a similar gameplay experience.

Why not make something easy and original to capture people attention, and then build upon it if you get a positive feedback. It may be setting, particular gameplay element, or combination of genres, just don't do SOMETHING LIKE XXX, think out of the box.

[Retropunch]

I don't want to sound snarky, but you've basically asked if people want 'an open world rpg'. I think the answer to that is obviously yes.

However as kulik said, it'd take years to match DFs adventure mode, and people would probably just play that instead. You need something that's different about your game - and that needs to be more than just 'cool spells'.

You've said you want magic to be hard to learn - why not make an RL where learning magic is incredibly difficult to learn and each spell takes a lot of preparation (reading books, gathering/finding reagents, crafting potions/magical items) and then you can do something really powerful - but only once, and then you've got to prepare another spell.

You need a take on it, not just 'open world rpg'

[Neonivek]

Adventure Mode in Dwarf Fortress is kind of meant to be really generic... So I am not quite sure what something that is meant to be like that is supposed to be.

You've said you want magic to be hard to learn - why not make an RL where learning magic is incredibly difficult to learn and each spell takes a lot of preparation (reading books, gathering/finding reagents, crafting potions/magical items) and then you can do something really powerful - but only once, and then you've got to prepare another spell.

You know, you don't need magic. If you want to make magic some hurdle that no one is willing to take... you can just do something else. There are plenty of fantasy settings without any magic at all.

[Shadowlord]

> I want magic to be hard to obtain, take a lot of effort, and then really powerful so it's really rewarding!
> You know instead of making it hard you could just not do it
#missingthepoint

It might work for the folks who spend all their time grinding in MMOs, if you can tear them away from said MMOs, but it won't for people who have no patience, read nothing, and want their fun immediately. So you might include an easy and powerful spell tree with eventual nasty repercussions for those people. Say, blood magic, for instance.

[Retropunch]

You know, you don't need magic. If you want to make magic some hurdle that no one is willing to take... you can just do something else. There are plenty of fantasy settings without any magic at all.

Yeah, you're kinda missing the point - the idea would be that the fun is that becoming a mage/wizard is actually challenging rather than just 'press fireball + ice shield'.

It might work for the folks who spend all their time grinding in MMOs, if you can tear them away from said MMOs, but it won't for people who have no patience, read nothing, and want their fun immediately. So you might include an easy and powerful spell tree with eventual nasty repercussions for those people. Say, blood magic, for instance.

The key is making it so it's not a grind, which is obviously much easier said than done! I think that we should encourage developers to not try to please everyone though - you've got to set an audience and work towards pleasing that audience, otherwise you just end up with a completely focus-less game.

I'd imagine it like The Witcher, where you need to hunt monsters to gather ingredients - with the player having to hunt down the knowledge in old tombs/libraries/etc, the reagents from monsters/looting, and then add in some trial and error, demon summoning, horrible alchemy mishaps and jealous rival wizards and you've got yourself a pretty interesting RPG!

[dennislp3]

Magic is essentially "cheating"...it is a concept of something that breaks physics and the way the world works...I find it somewhat annoying when it is trivialized and weak. It also makes a game repetitive and boring when everything is within a short reach.

I have personally developed game concepts with magic that are rooted in real world physics and stuff in terms of cost. Real costs and requirements (especially ones that make some sort of logical sense) are far more enjoyable than basic "mana" systems...unfortunately making a game is not something I can do anymore for the next few years at least.

[Neonivek]

Magic is essentially "cheating"...it is a concept of something that breaks physics and the way the world works...I find it somewhat annoying when it is trivialized and weak. It also makes a game repetitive and boring when everything is within a short reach.

I am going to ignore "different settings, different rules" thing AND the "In what way is magic inherently strong?" I could give a speech about and instead focus on the gameplay aspect.

If you want magic to be 'special' that is fine but remember that there needs to be an appropriate risk versus reward (AND continued risk versus reward) but also you don't want to bar the player from being able to do anything interesting. The reason why magic is often given to the player from the start is because it allow you to develop magic as something consistent within the gameplay.

Which brings me to

Yeah, you're kinda missing the point - the idea would be that the fun is that becoming a mage/wizard is actually challenging rather than just 'press fireball + ice shield'.

Yes but your missing my point. That if you punish the player for wanting magic, just because you want magic to be this rare, expensive, and risky skill... It ceases to be fun and starts to be a chore. Remember that if you give the players a Bazooka, they will use it even if they have to write an essay every time... and they will rightfully call your game boring for doing so. If you want to make it risky so that every use has a chance to essentially wipe the character then people will simply not use it and it becomes useless.

Real costs and requirements (especially ones that make some sort of logical sense) are far more enjoyable than basic "mana" systems

You must have absolutely loved Ultima. Though I personally found reagent hunting to be a chore in the games that forced you to do it. (though they usually used both systems at once)

--

But ok... So you have magic that is rare and expensive. It might be "Powerful" but not only is a sword is as well... But because it is rare and expensive it also makes training it nearly impossible. So anyone who seriously considers magic is going to have to jump through quite a few hurdles.

Now what world changing abilities can magic have, to justify this? What can be done to mitigate it? What stops people from just stockpiling it? How can it not break the game?

[Retropunch]

Yes but your missing my point. That if you punish the player for wanting magic, just because you want magic to be this rare, expensive, and risky skill... It ceases to be fun and starts to be a chore.

The key, as with all game design, is not punishing the player or making it a chore - if you do those things, then it's not a fun game regardless of what it's about. DF/Roguelikes are hard, but the good ones don't needlessly punish the player or make it a chore - the fun is in achieving against difficult odds. As you say, it's all about risk vs reward.

This really all comes down to setting though. I'd set this in a world where no one/few can do magic, but the whole point of the game would be to learn how to do magic. I'm not thinking of a game where 'you can just be a barbarian instead so why bother', but one where the goal is to become a wizard, so that would obviously need to be a challenge otherwise it wouldn't be a fun game.

This was all just an idea though as it sounded like UristMcDwarf wanted to make an RPG with an in depth magic system but hadn't fleshed it out much further.

[Spehss _]

Neat. I was thinking of trying to make a class (with skill trees) based dungeon crawler roguelike with combat similar to DF where you can aim for body parts and inflict wounds and such. Nowhere near doing it though.

Good luck with your project, it sounds like it could be pretty cool.