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Author Topic: How to survive in an evil glacier  (Read 4684 times)

Slakan

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2015, 12:43:42 pm »

Quote
MAGMA!!!!


But seriously, I agree that dropping the wagon and looting the caravans are not really what you should strive for, and neither is walling off map edges and other constructs that exploit technical limitations (size of the map) to ease the burden. However, it will be very difficult to conquer the surface in the first year (or two), which means that it will be tough to let the migrants and traders survive (increasing your zombie problem). I would probably embark with some well trained hammerdorfs and archers and some metal + coal + 1 coke, that should allow you to have a decent military by summer - but a decent military might not be a match against whatever the biome throws at you. You can probably do two miner/smith dwarfs, who will first mine out minimal quarters and then produce arms+armor. The five other dwarfs can be military (or 4/5), and can set up food production while the miners+smiths are busy, after which they take over and the soldiers get training. Maybe you can re-use the map from the "single pick challenge" thread, it would be nice to have a direct comparison of how much easier bringing some stuff on embark makes things.

What you say makes a lot of sense, i remember that i tried it but i failed. Having 4 soldiers made mining too slow and what i usually do to have water on a glacier is to colapse floors of ice into the underground to melt and have water, then build some farms. If i don't have 5 miners i can't accomplish that in time beacause my first wave of inmigrats will consume all my drinks and food quickly and it's very rare to get a miner inmigrant.

With that said i really appreciate your suggestions and if you can make a video response where you manage to pull it off it will be gold for me.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 12:48:09 pm by Slakan »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2015, 01:34:42 pm »

A sealed path to the edge is an exploit, obviously, but an unsealed one that get caravans/immigrants out of the weather is not; that's just common sense. Caravans, in particular, should be allowed to be roofed from the map entrance, since they bolt the second evil rain starts to fall, and there is no mechanism for sending your dorfs out with umbrellas to shield them (I don't even think there ARE umbrellas in DF).
Also, even though the goal is to keep the surface clean, that doesn't mean the cleaning operations have to start immediately from embark.

Edit: What Slakan said doesn't bode well for my embark. I've already realized two miners are too few, and I've got at least two levels of aquifer to pierce...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 01:38:25 pm by PatrikLundell »
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vanatteveldt

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2015, 03:55:59 pm »

Edit: What Slakan said doesn't bode well for my embark. I've already realized two miners are too few, and I've got at least two levels of aquifer to pierce...

You might want to have a look at the aquifer piercing technique developed in the single pick challenge, it requires just the single miner and no pumps/buckets etc. Lemme find the link Here you go: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=129994.msg4620472#msg4620472

It takes a bit of practice but it will pierce a 2+ aquifer much easier than the double slit method and other methods which rely on pumps and building walls in shallow water.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 04:00:39 pm by vanatteveldt »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2015, 01:40:13 am »

Thanks vanatteveldt.

While the method won't work for me, reading it at least got me thinking.
The method won't work for me because the aquifer is in the first stone layer below the glacier.
- I tried to use the ring cave-in method, but the ice melted as soon as it dropped into the aquifer, and obviously the same would happen with that method.
- I've also tried the double-slit, but the pump's output tile immediately becomes a wall of ice.
- I've tried to probe for clusters, and while I've found some bit-coal, I haven't found any place where I can get down further than one level.
Remaining methods I can think of:
- Pure chicken run. If that works to get past the aquifer a diagonal and then up should save the miner to allow it to more safely dig for a drain.
- Exposing the aquifer to the surface ought to freeze it, which should make it possible to mine it and secure it (with ice, ironically).

Edit:
The chicken run method failed. I only managed to expose the 3:rd aquifer layer by starting in a bit-coal cluster, but on the other hand, the miner is unharmed.
Exposure to the surface did the trick, however, although my previous cave-in attempts resulted in this ending up as a ring of ice instead of a solid block (but I don't really understand why, but that's what I intended originally, so I'm not complaining), with a swiss cheese lump of ice on top of it. Pumping again resulted in a wall of ice, but since there was no influx, digging it away while pumping slowly whittled the water away. A much faster method was to designate a pond and have the dorfs try to fill it. The filling failed because the water immediately froze, resulting in a large stack of 10 unit lots of ice and a rapid removal of the water as the dorf tried and retried to get some water. Sometimes failures are good!
When the water had been removed the normal double-slit method worked (without freezing). However, ice melted away before I could use it to plug the walls. Fortunately, I'd brought marble for flux. Cutting that into blocks allowed me to start plugging the shaft, and then the stone dug out in the process could be cut and used for the remainder after being cut into blocks. It didn't hurt that bit-coal was present and both naturally plugged parts of the wall and allowed some careful mining for more building material. It would probably have worked to dig away the ice block on top of the shaft and expose the next level to the surface, and that method shouldn't require any stone/wood/... to shore up the wall, as the method would work in a similar fashion as magma sea obsidianization penetration.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 06:27:27 am by PatrikLundell »
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Sanctume

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2015, 01:21:11 pm »

Water will only turn into ice when it is exposed to the outside.
So when your cave in method failed, the area is already exposed that using pumps / double slit method will no longer work.
Time to dig on other areas that aren't exposed, and water from those aquifer will not freeze.

i2amroy

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2015, 02:52:13 pm »

It's true that caravans are not requiered to survive but the objective of the video is "Take over the surface" so if the surface is infested with 300 inmigrant and caravan warrior zombified it's gonna be an imposible task. And the supplies of wood from the caravan are pretty useful!!
"Extremely Difficult" != "Impossible". :P

With a little hard work and patience a self-sealing/self-draining magma trap combined with an enclosed area could rather easily make a spot where it was impossible for undead to make it through but possible for anyone else to get through (though the small drawback would be that if an undead was chasing someone through there would be at least some chance that the dwarf would get sealed in with the magma as well, such a shame).

Honestly if you are in a freezing location the easiest way to dig through an aquifer is just to expose it to the surface. Channel a ring from above. Then channel another ring in the ice that is created, leaving the outermost layer of ice to hold back the water. Repeat as necessary until you are through the aquifer. This method even works in areas that are frozen year-round, though you then lose 2 "ring sizes" each time you go downwards instead of just 1 (since you need to construct an additional ring of constructed walls inside the ice ring formed).
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Quote from: PTTG
It would be brutally difficult and probably won't work. In other words, it's absolutely dwarven!
Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A fun zombie survival rougelike that I'm dev-ing for.

PatrikLundell

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2015, 03:59:32 pm »

Sanctume, I have to say you're incorrect. Using pumps fully underground but in the lowest glacier layer (directly on top of the conglomerate containing the aquifer) caused the water to turn to ice immediately when output from the pump (it seems the glacier temperature is -5 degrees centigrade). Only when that failed did I try to use a cave-in, only to have that ice melt as the aquifer has a temperature above freezing. When the aquifer then was exposed to the open air it froze where exposed.

Yes, freezing exposure is the easiest, but that requires exposure to the hostile local wildlife, and I'm keen on not exposing my dorfs.
I eventually canned that embark as the biome turned out not to be reanimating. My current embark is reanimating except for the top NE corner, which contains an aquifer in an ocean biome. My first embark attempt ended in disaster, as an undead yeti tore the whole party, complete with animals, to shreds. An evil rain caused both miners to despair (apart from generating nausea and blisters all over the body), so they didn't even try to dig. I then crashed and retried a reembark a lot of times before I managed to dig down before the animals from the previous embark were reanimated, then get a well going before thirsting to death, and then manage to build a butchery in the safe corner and butcher a draft animal to get something to eat (nothing except weapons animals, and a single piece of wood was salvaged before the opening was bricked over). Boy, is it frustrating to see the dorfs hunt vermin rather than finish the butchery and slaughter an animal!
The surface was further cluttered with 3 immigration waves (one even appeared in winter) and a caravan (sans wagons), despite my fortress being completely sealed and having no trade depot. The trade liaison didn't make it either, of course.
The surface was eventually purged by trapping and atom smashing the undead that filed in through one of the entrances I made (the other one just confuses invaders, who generally refuse to enter, or, if the do, exit again). A dark tower siege then failed to find any of my entrances, despite entering on top of the confusing one, but did the great service of slaughtering 4 undead yetis (while I have one caged), reducing the population greatly in favor of living birds. They also managed to fight and kill a titan that then reanimated to be fought again, and the undead killed by both yetis and the titan turned on their former partners, resulting in a rather messy surface. 10 days before the siege year was over they'd finally drifted across the map and 6 if them found the entrance and were caught in the traps. The rest of the force left when the year was over.

With the lengthy description above in mind, I'd say you'd have to be very lucky to be able to dig down and seal yourself in, but once safely underground clearing the surface is mostly a matter of careful and methodical work (That's the reason I save scummed the failed reestablishment attempts, since I think the embark was about as cluttered as was survivable already). I almost succeeded in clearing out a cavern overwhelmed by undead that recruited every critter entering it by atom smashing all that filed in through my entrance and cage capturing the ones too big (cave ogres, one GCS (out of two), and jabberers). I had to rebuild bridges twice because they were destroyed by big critters. With 20 or so critters left they stopped coming, so I made two raids with my poorly equipped militia to clear things out further, but before the next push an FB entered and was recruited, so I'm probably back to square one. I've tried starting a fire raging through the cavern, but that didn't seem to have much of an effect on the undead. Divide and conquer is an option (using cave-ins to partition the cavern into manageable portions).
A parallel thread concerns the biggest threat to the fortress so far (reanimated wool)...
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PyroTechno

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2015, 06:00:10 pm »

Here's a trap suggestion for you:

Build a hall full of upright spear/spike traps, connected to a single lever. When enemies enter the hall, set the lever to be pulled on repeat.

This trap has been known to massacre anything up to and including HFS.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2015, 03:01:10 am »

The disadvantages of a repeating spike trap array (I usually use a mine cart repeater for that) are:
- Lots of stinky bits lying around.
- Risk of reanimation of (severed) parts while hauled away.
- Sapient body part stress.

And yes, I don't think anything is resistant to candy spikes (but several FBs have been invulnerable to my standard glass ones).
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PyroTechno

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2015, 01:49:17 pm »

The disadvantages of a repeating spike trap array (I usually use a mine cart repeater for that) are:
- Lots of stinky bits lying around.
- Risk of reanimation of (severed) parts while hauled away.
- Sapient body part stress.

And yes, I don't think anything is resistant to candy spikes (but several FBs have been invulnerable to my standard glass ones).

Candy? Who needs it? I just use iron.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How to survive in an evil glacier
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2015, 04:39:13 pm »

Just because I have yet to encounter a critter made out of steel doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, I embark on metal free embarks, so I rely on goblinite and candy.
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