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[Tamren]

lol Savok, that you did something rude is no longer in question and no amount of wriggling around will let you off the hook. Attacking the source of an argument does not make it any less valid and only serves to earn you the contempt of others. And that is not something to be hoarded lightly, or with pride.

Perhaps the texbook analogy was a bit too general. Lets say someone asked you where the "little dipper" constellation was. Instead of pointing it out to the person and explaining that the little dipper is a pattern of stars, you simply pull out a finger and point UP.

The information is there to be read, but it DOES NOT help them the slightest seeing as they do not even know that the little dipper is a constellation in the first place.

In any case, this is all moot seeing as you are perfectly happy with digging your own grave. Id wish you good luck with that but it seems that your doing just fine on your own.

Oh and btw, i though Godwin's law only applied if someone mentions Hitler specifically? Oh wait  

/thread

[Savok]

quote:lol Savok, that you did something rude is no longer in question and no amount of wriggling around will let you off the hook. Attacking the source of an argument does not make it any less valid and only serves to earn you the contempt of others. And that is not something to be hoarded lightly, or with pride.

Is there another Savok on this board whom I am not aware of?
There's got to be, since it is obvious that the above paragraph doesn't apply to anything I wrote.

quote:Perhaps the texbook analogy was a bit too general. Lets say someone asked you where the "little dipper" constellation was. Instead of pointing it out to the person and explaining that the little dipper is a pattern of stars, you simply pull out a finger and point UP.

No, I direct them to look in a telescope that points to the little dipper. Since they know it is a constellation, I don't need to say that it is a pattern of stars. That could be quite offensive.

quote:The information is there to be read, but it DOES NOT help them the slightest seeing as they do not even know that the little dipper is a constellation in the first place.

Um, if they ask about the "little dipper constellation," I think they do.

[Whiskey Bob]

All I can say about this thread is Savok comes across as much more reasonable and much less rude than the people attacking him; especially the person who wants to carry his little vendetta to other, unrelated topics.

As far as the wiki goes, if someone thinks posting a link to a relevant and helpful page is 'rude', well...   :eek:

I for one am grateful that such a resource exists.

[CautionToTheWind]

Yes, it is indeed ridiculous. At first i tought Tamren was just limited, but now it is obvious he is trolling. Wether he practices the old forms of trolling for fun, or if he really needs the attention and vindication (on nothing) remains unknown but also irrelevant.

"lol Savok, that you did something rude is no longer in question and no amount of wriggling around will let you off the hook."

What a sad person you are, Tamren. You posted that you consider the wiki a cheating tool, but you do not respect your own opinion enough to defend it, so you claim instead that wiki links are unpolite.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>Attacking the source of an argument does not make it any less valid and only serves to earn you the contempt of others.</STRONG>

I have nothing against it, but I consider the wiki a cheating tool because that is exactly what it is. I already explained how over reliance on the wiki will stagnate this game. Something i notice, that none of you have yet disproven.

You do not have much authority to call me a troll seeing as the only posts you have so far made in this thread "only served to attract attention".

As for Savok saying something rude. well.

quote:Originally posted by Savok:
"If they can't figure out what part of the page is the info they need and how it is relevant, they aren't smart enough to play Dwarf Fortress." "Yes, but if they aren't smart enough to click on the link, then either they are new and will soon learn or they aren't smart enough to play Dwarf Fortress. This isn't a simple, easy game!"[/QB]

No matter how much you deny it, there is no polite form of "elitist". Elitism will kill any game in a hurry, and this goes triple for a character based game like DF.

If Savok is smart he will continue to spread word of the wiki, which after all does need to be done. However if he is also wise he will work to be a bit more inclusive at the same time.

[Blackcat]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>I have nothing against it, but I consider the wiki a cheating tool because that is exactly what it is. I already explained how over reliance on the wiki will stagnate this game. Something i notice, that none of you have yet disproven.</STRONG>

This is a statement of opinion, not of fact. You consider the wiki a cheating tool. Others consider the wiki to be the manual for the game. It contains a lot of information in an easily-accessed and well-formatted layout that the in-game documentation does not. It tells you how to build a farm; What rooms are needed and how to define them; Which crops produce what and where. The various exploits and spoilers listed in the wiki in a few places do not make the whole wiki a cheating tool.

In other words, the wiki makes the game more accessible. All those early questions everyone has ("How do I farm?") are answered there. The only thing the wiki stagnates is the plethora of newbie questions here on the forums.

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>No matter how much you deny it, there is no polite form of "elitist". Elitism will kill any game in a hurry, and this goes triple for a character based game like DF.</STRONG>

DF is a complex game, burdened with an idiosyncratic User Interface. It does require a certain level of intelligence, memory, attention-to-detail and commitment to learn the game. This game does not have a learning curve. It has multiple learning cliffs. Savok wasn't being elitist. He was being honest.

[Savok]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>No matter how much you deny it, there is no polite form of "elitist". Elitism will kill any game in a hurry, and this goes triple for a character based game like DF.</STRONG>

Oh my! You caught me! I am an elitist because I don't think that a mentally underdeveloped person or a younger child is smart enough to play this very complex game, even though it has a multitude of learning cliffs! I am so sorry. You are right, no matter how justified, any kind of belief that a group one belongs to is better than anyone else is wicked and wrong.
Even if someone is unskilled intelligently, has poor memory, can't focus on detail, and isn't commited, I should accept them into our happy family and try to help them in any way possible to have fun playing this game even if they don't understand it at all.
[/sarcasticrant]

Normally, I don't do that, but his statement was just so incredibly... well, I'm not sure; in other threads he hasn't struck me as stupid enough to say the above.

[CautionToTheWind]

"You do not have much authority to call me a troll seeing as the only posts you have so far made in this thread "only served to attract attention"."

Troll is as troll does, my friend. By the quality of your attempt, you are clearly not a full time troll. I certainly won't go making noise in your threads when you reply to someone with an explanation rather than a wiki link. And I won't call you elitist, even thou i consider expecting someone to deal with you just to get basic information on the game quite elitist in itself.

The wiki is a much faster resource, and i bet a new player stumped at some difficulty like farms will much easier stay in the game if he quickly finds the answer in the wiki than if he has to wait an indeterminate number of hours for a forum contributor to post a reply, specially considering how often a new player may get stuck in this wonderful game.

As for me being a troll, i write clearly and to the point, as you continually evade the points to which you can't reply and make noise.

Also, does "ad hominem" mean ANYTHING to you?

[ktrey]

Wow guys.

I'm truly sorry that my tiny (parenthetical, even!) aside has spawned this monster.

It works for me, it's part of my "playing style" and I'm of the personal opinion that what works for someone/an individual's playing style shouldn't be immediately stamped "INCORRECT." In fact, I'd go as far to say that they're sacrosanct. Isn't the Wiki itself composed completely of notes and contributions made by individuals who stumbled across them whilst playing the game/digging through code?

I'm not attempting to moderate this thread by any stretch, but three pages? This seems a bit unnecessary. May I suggest that this dogpile resolve itself peacefully by petering out into nonexistence and slowly scrolling off the forum's first page? If not, then at least recall for a moment that all of this rigmarole has almost absolutely nothing to do with the meat of the topic posted.

My Legendary Stone Crafter, Zasit Idenmörul has just churned out a bin full of ☼Felsite Mug☼s. Please take one, fill it up with the brew of your choice (not to be stingy, but please be moderate with the Tuber Beer, Bloated Tubers are import-only on my map and I have a Broker who seems to like to eat them above all other foods). Clang those mugs together in camaraderie, and drink until you forget what all the fighting was about. It's the dwarven thing to do.

[Savok]

quote:Originally posted by ktrey:
<STRONG>Wow guys.

I'm truly sorry that my tiny (parenthetical, even!) aside has spawned this monster.</STRONG>

No, that wasn't you, that was Tamren.

quote:Originally posted by ktrey:
<STRONG>It works for me, it's part of my "playing style" and I'm of the personal opinion that what works for someone/an individual's playing style shouldn't be immediately stamped "INCORRECT." In fact, I'd go as far to say that they're sacrosanct. Isn't the Wiki itself composed completely of notes and contributions made by individuals who stumbled across them whilst playing the game/digging through code?</STRONG>

If I notice that outdoor refuse disappears at the turn of the season when exactly 23 dwarves have cleaning and wood hauling labors on, and say that that is the case, shouldn't someone tell me that it disappears whether or not those labors are on, if only to help a newbie who reads my post and is confused?
As for an indiviual's incorrect opinions about how the game works being sacred? If you really think that, please leave these forums.

[Toady One]

Savok, please don't tell people to leave these forums.  If you feel there's an actual problem at some point and I don't notice, PM or email me and I'll handle it.

[ September 05, 2007: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[Tamren]

heh, you guys really need to chill out.

Every one of you people are entitled to your unique oppinion, as am I. I strongly encourage people that they should argue for what they believe in, as you have done. A forum is meant and built for discussion. An argument is but a variant of the same, regardless of content.

If you want to skip the discussion for personal attacks, that is fine with me. Life would grow boring otherwise. But you will have no right to blame me for responding in kind.

Now let me spell this out one one last time:
Savok likes the wiki, and rightly so. Savok believes that spreading knowledge of the wiki will improve the overall skill of the community, which it does. On the other hand, I believe that the wiki is a great tool, but is not the universal cure. There are bettter ways to spread knowledge and wisdom than simply directing people to the DF bible. The reasoning behind that belief is that if everyone learns to play the same way, we will figure out nothing new, and want nothing new. Hello stagnationville, population: suck.

The main reason we need the wiki at all is that the in-game documentation has been deemed inadequate. So then, since you are packed to the gills with tasty wiki lore, why not offer to rewrite the in-game manual for Toady?

Now you have 2 choices. You can counter my argument with one of your own. Or troll this post and me. I would advise against the latter because its not a good thing to have bait in your mouth and egg on your face, just sayin.

[puke]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>Every one of you people are entitled to your unique oppinion, as am I.</STRONG>

I'm not.

[Toady One]

Tamren, you shouldn't make a post telling people to chill out and then include your last paragraph.  It wasn't necessary.  In fact, it's counterproductive.

Anyway, this thread seems to be tainted, and I'm tired of popping in here.  It's locked now.