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[mickel]

I always get upset by an unhelpful "RTFM", and when someone doesn't just post that, but actually takes the trouble to link it somewhere, it's not just lazy, they're taking trouble to be actively unhelpful.

The forum has qualities the Wiki doesn't. It's dynamic. It fosters discussion. You don't just get a tersely written theory (there is a lot of "might" and "could" and "is believed to" in the Wiki for some strange reason) but you get a discussion about the subject. People offer their opinions on the subject, you get a lot of different suggestions on solutions, and a lot of the time the discussion gives rise to new ideas on how to do things better.

The Wiki doesn't contain any of this in it's current state. It's just a reference sheet of minimal facts which are usually not complete, which strikes me as odd. There's no need for a "might" or "is believed to" in the case of a software project. Everything is (or should) be documented. Selling crossbows doesn't "maybe" promote immigration of crossbowdwarves, it either does or doesn't - it's in the code.

This aside, I understand if someone doesn't want to take the trouble to sit on a forum and give meaningful answers to people, but I don't understand why someone would want to sit on a forum and give meaningless answers.

[puke]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>This aside, I understand if someone doesn't want to take the trouble to sit on a forum and give meaningful answers to people, but I don't understand why someone would want to sit on a forum and give meaningless answers.</STRONG>

amen, brother.  i asked an honest question (that i thought was obscure enough that other people might also want an answer to, and / or to discuss) about a month ago, and some jerkoff gave me a "read the wiki" reply with a link to an article that didnt answer the question.  at all.

I didnt want it to devolve into one of these discussions, so I let it slide.  But I put the same question to the helpfull blokes on the IRC channel last week, and they were very forthcoming with usefull information.

mickel's is on the point.  the community is for people that want to constructively discuss the game and be actively helpfull to one another.  if thats not your bag, then take it elsewhere before you harm the game by offending potential players.  

if you dont want to answer someones noob question, then just ignore it while someone else answers it.  the thread will slide to the back pages soon enough.

[RPB]

[rant]Yeah! BOO WIKI! How dare people take their own time to attempt to create a useful index of information culled from their own experiences and discussions on the forums etc.! Clearly if you discover something of importance the most beneficial way to apply that knowledge is to divulge it only in private conversations instead of contributing to a centralized resource where anyone can use it.[/rant]

OK, OK, perhaps that was uncalled for. But jeez, lighten up people. Some people get over-zealous with slapping wiki links on newbie questions, yes, but that doesn't mean you have to piss all over the wiki. A wiki is essentially just another discussion medium for the game, except structured in a way to facilitate information lookups in a way that a forum/IRC/PMs/IMs are not. If  you don't want to use it, don't use it, but don't trash people for trying to build it into something useful.

[ September 02, 2007: Message edited by: RPB ]

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by RPB:
<STRONG>If  you don't want to use it, don't use it, but don't trash people for trying to build it into something useful.</STRONG>

I never said anything of the sort.

[puke]

well, its easy to jump to that conclusion when i frequently piss on the Wikipedia with a capital W and as a proper noun.  but i never piss on the Dwarf-Wiki, which is a wonderful reference that i really couldnt live without.  i certainly didnt mean to come off as a detractor of any of the great fan works that are out there for people to use.

im advocating being helpfull, afterall. and whats more helpfull than contributing to an easily referenced source of information?  lets not get carried away here.

[RPB]

quote:Originally posted by puke:
<STRONG>lets not get carried away here.</STRONG>

Words for everyone here.

I apologize for going off like that, but I was seeing a lot of misplaced criticism about the DF wiki (some of it implicit criticism). Basically, the forum has a wider contributor base than the wiki. That pretty much sums up the advantages the forum has. The forums are "dynamic" and "foster discussion", yes, but that's the point of the wiki as well! The forums simply see more discussion because they have more people on them. Arguments about the forums "versus" the wiki seem pretty ridiculous anyhow since much of the wiki's information was culled from forum discussions. And yes, it's unfortunate that the wiki doesn't get enough attention to live up to its potential, but sitting around complaining that it's got incomplete information is not going to fix the problem. If anything it makes it worse, because to some extent it discourages people from using it at all.

[puke]

thats just it.  theres no "versus".  i dont think anyone is suggesting that there is.

theres not even anything wrong with linking the wiki in a forum response.  but its all in how its done, see?

to compare, this isnt a rude post.  if this post was replaced with the three word phrase "have some manners" then I think we'd all agree that I'm out of line.  Thats all were saying -- that people should think about HOW they say things, especially when it influences how newcomers view the community.

[aeroue]

Personally I think that most of you need to think a lot more about how you interpret things.

Apart of course from those of you clearly intending to misinterpret what someone has said to portray them in a poorer light.

Some guy made a comment, that as far as Dwarf Fortress knowledge goes was undeniably wrong. So what if all that Savok did was provide a link, it was concise and helpful and got straight to the point. Unlike the page and a half of rubbish after, full of people whining because there 'e-feelings' have been hurt.

P.S. That was a pretty good link, I did not know that what weapons you made effected what soldiers would immigrate over, usefull.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by aeroue:
<STRONG>Some guy made a comment, that as far as Dwarf Fortress knowledge goes was undeniably wrong. So what if all that Savok did was provide a link, it was concise and helpful and got straight to the point. </STRONG>

If you asked me what a Procyon Lotor was, and i handed you a textbook on mammals. That would:
a. Not answer your question.
b. Imply that aswering your question would be a waste of my time.
c. Give you zero indication whatsoever of where the answer to your question lies.
Obviously, that would suck. And fyi A procyon lotor is a raccoon.

The problem with the Wiki is that there is no human element to it. Let me explain.

If someone comes to this community board with a problem, it means that they have had difficulty with some part of the game. This gives the rest of the community a chance to explain the problem to them. By doing so we spread that knowledge around, even to people who have not encountered that problem yet.

What it also does, is indicate that at least 1 person had that specific problem. Lets say there was a bug in the game, to get a dwarves to open gold doors you must engrave the floor on ONLY one side of the door. Any other configuration, and your dwarves will be unable to open the door at all. So a guy figures this out and posts the answer on the wiki.

If everyone checked the wiki first, they would see the fix for the problem and use it. Eventually people will forget to use the fix now and then and get stuck with a door that will not open. Since they already know how to fix it, they will not raise a fuss. Newcomers to the game that run into the problem are directed to the wiki. If they fail to find the fix, they get frustrated and leave. If they do find the fix and learn to use it, they will never post about the problem

What you end up with, is a stupid and annoying bug in the game that NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT!. Do you understand the problem here? Without discussion of the problem, Toady might never find out about the bug until he runs into it himself. That there is a way around the problem is irrelevant, the bug must be fixed. The wiki is a great tool but to rely on it too much will only lead to stagnation for both the game and the community.

Let me make something very clear. I have nothing against whats Savok is trying to do, or him personally. I simply wanted to make abundantly clear that his chosen method was not doing any good for this community. Go ahead and call me sanctimonious or a nazi, im just telling it like it is.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by aeroue:
<STRONG>
Some guy made a comment, that as far as Dwarf Fortress knowledge goes was undeniably wrong. So what if all that Savok did was provide a link, it was concise and helpful and got straight to the point.</STRONG>

That has been thoroughly contested in earlier posts, and I don't have anything to add there.

quote:<STRONG>
Unlike the page and a half of rubbish after, full of people whining because there 'e-feelings' have been hurt.</STRONG>

The only rubbish here is the notion that manners don't matter on the Internet and that people's feelings don't matter if they're not physically present to punch you in the face.

A jerk is a jerk no matter if he's standing three feet away or hiding behind an alias on the Internet - and I mean that in general terms and not pointed at anyone in particular here or otherwise (although some pre-teens in MMOGs come to mind   :p )

Most of the people who post in this forum are working hard to improve the game experience to everyone, and I think it's very rude and inconsiderate to disregard what they have to say as "whining".

[Savok]

quote:If you asked me what a Procyon Lotor was, and i handed you a textbook on mammals. That would:
a. Not answer your question.
b. Imply that aswering your question would be a waste of my time.
c. Give you zero indication whatsoever of where the answer to your question lies.
Obviously, that would suck.

I agree with that 100%. However, if you handed me a textbook on mammals, opened to the section of a few paragraphs that contains "procyon lotor"="raccoon" that would:
a. Answer the question
b. Imply that my question was interesting enough to take the trouble to find where the answer is found
c. Give me a very accurate indication of where the answer to my question lies
Obviously, that would be very helpful.

[Shadowlord]

Savok, that would still strike me as being rude. It's like if you said "Hi, I'd like to make an appointment," and the person behind the desk handed you a stack of papers without saying anything. It's just inherently rude to not say anything in response to a question. (And handing someone a paper and saying only "Read this" in response to a question is also inherently rude, IMHO.)

I think the reaction of the person handed the book would be "... I asked you if you knew what it meant, not 'Could you find me a taxonomy textbook or the like and open it to the page about procylon lotor?'"

[Bricktop]

quote:   Origionally Posted by Ktrey
   I've found offering [the dwarven caravan] crossbows helps attract marksdwarves

quote:
Posted by Savok
read the Wiki

First, I'd like to point out that the link to the wiki wasn't even related to the main topic. It was about a small comment somebody made about making crossbows.

Second, I'd like to point out that what ktrey said isn't exactly untrue. Note (s)he said "I've found..." In other words, in ktreys experience trading crossbows has brought marksdwarf immigrants. Well, thats probably correct. I have no doubt that ktrey has played the game, made and traded crossbows and received more than the usual marksdwarf immigrants. It would then be logical to make the connection between the trading and the immigration. So basically I can't fault any of the logic in what ktreys said.

Now, the part where the arguement started. Savok could have pointed out to ktrey that he had made an understandable mistake and then pointed out that it is in fact making the crossbows, rather than trading them, that results in more immigrant marksdwarves. However, Savok instead decided to post a link to the wiki and refuse to explain it himself. When asked why he haden't explained, Savok effectively told us all that he considered sharing his own knowledge to be beneath him and that he didn't think ktrey was worthy of an explanation.

Savok then went on to explain that anyone who doesn't read the whole wiki must be too stupid to play the game and so shouldn't be allowed to. What do you suggest we do then? Make it so that before you can download the game you must complete a written test to ensure that only people of sufficient intelligence can access it? If we seriously went by your opinions on these matters then Dwarf Fortress would be dead. It is a game that relies almost entirely on having a good community to discuss the game and you can't have a good community for a game like this if that community is elitist. It wouldn't work.

Now, Savok... would you care to explain why you see ktrey or anyone else on this forum as inferior to you? Would you care to explain why you think that people shouldn't play the game just because they made a small (and understandable) mistake? Would you care to explain what it is exactly that gives you the right to tell somebody they shouldn't play Drwarf Fortress?

[puke]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>Go ahead and call me sanctimonious or a nazi, im just telling it like it is.</STRONG>

and THAT is the End of the Thread.

Thanks for playing.

[Savok]

quote:First, I'd like to point out that the link to the wiki wasn't even related to the main topic. It was about a small comment somebody made about making crossbows.

...and I suppose you stay on the exact topic a thread starts with all the time?
Need anyone stay exactly on the topic all the time?

quote:Second, I'd like to point out that what ktrey said isn't exactly untrue. Note (s)he said "I've found..." In other words, in ktreys experience trading crossbows has brought marksdwarf immigrants. Well, thats probably correct. I have no doubt that ktrey has played the game, made and traded crossbows and received more than the usual marksdwarf immigrants. It would then be logical to make the connection between the trading and the immigration. So basically I can't fault any of the logic in what ktreys said.

Of course what he said was true, but since "X causes Y" follows from "in my experience, X causes Y" and "X is all that causes Y" follows from "X causes Y," then his saying that was as good as saying "Trading X weapons causes more immigration of X weapondwarves.
...wait, do you think I'm blaming ktrey for saying something that we think to be false? That's just rubbish.

quote:Now, the part where the arguement started. Savok could have pointed out to ktrey that he had made an understandable mistake and then pointed out that it is in fact making the crossbows, rather than trading them, that results in more immigrant marksdwarves. However, Savok instead decided to post a link to the wiki and refuse to explain it himself. When asked why he haden't explained, Savok effectively told us all that he considered sharing his own knowledge to be beneath him and that he didn't think ktrey was worthy of an explanation.

I posted a link to the wiki to promote wiki awareness. If sharing my knowledge was beneath me, they why would I have posted a link to the two paragraphs that contain all my knowledge on the topic? Same for "thinking ktrey isn't worthy of an explanation." If I had written an explanation instead of linking to the wiki, I'd have copypasted the two paragraphs that I linked to, because they say my knowledge on the topic better than I could.

quote:Savok then went on to explain that anyone who doesn't read the whole wiki must be too stupid to play the game and so shouldn't be allowed to. What do you suggest we do then? Make it so that before you can download the game you must complete a written test to ensure that only people of sufficient intelligence can access it? If we seriously went by your opinions on these matters then Dwarf Fortress would be dead. It is a game that relies almost entirely on having a good community to discuss the game and you can't have a good community for a game like this if that community is elitist. It wouldn't work.

No, I said that anyone who can't click on a link and read a couple paragraphs is too stupid to play the game. Not that he shouldn't be allowed to, but that he won't be able to.
Suggesting that the community be elitist?! If "elitist" = "over five years old," yes, but aside from that, of course not.

quote:Now, Savok... would you care to explain why you see ktrey or anyone else on this forum as inferior to you? Would you care to explain why you think that people shouldn't play the game just because they made a small (and understandable) mistake? Would you care to explain what it is exactly that gives you the right to tell somebody they shouldn't play Drwarf Fortress?

All of the questions in the above paragraph are fundementally flawed. If you wish for it to be possible to answer them, I suggest you rephrase them to be something like the following:

quote:Now, Savok... would you care to tell us if you see ktrey or anyone else on this forum as inferior to you, and explain your viewpoint?? Would you care to tell us if you think that people shouldn't play the game just because they made a small (and understandable) mistake, and explain your viewpoint? Would you care to tell us what it is exactly that gives you the right to tell somebody they shouldn't play Drwarf Fortress, and explain your viewpoint?

If I answered this, I would do so in the following way:
I see some on this forum as inferior to me, like "nempuu))))" (is that the correct spelling? If not, the guy who uses massive amounts of )'s and 1's). Most, however, I see as neither inferior or superior, simply because I don't know them at all.
I do not think that people should not play the game due to a small, understandable mistake. That would be ridiculous.
I have the right to tell someone to not play Dwarf Fortress as much as you do; if speaking to someone who falls down the stairs every time he sees a little smiley face, certainly. If not? Well, it would depend on the situation, but I doubt it.