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[SnowWhite]

I like Savok's reminders to read the wiki.  Especially since she (he?) always includes a helpful link to the relevant article.  

[Insert essay here about how plain text does a poor job conveying tone, and that often the reader assumes an emotion very different from that of the writer.]

They are short and might come across as terse and well, grumpy, but they are helpful and lots more pleasant than if someone posted "You're wrong!  It doesn't work that way!  N00b!  L2P!"  (Please note the preceding quote was meant as a joking example and is not something I would say seriously even in MMOG chat.)

[Savok]

That's "he."

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by SnowWhite:
<STRONG>They are short and might come across as terse and well, grumpy, but they are helpful and lots more pleasant than if someone posted "You're wrong!  It doesn't work that way!  N00b!  L2P!"  (Please note the preceding quote was meant as a joking example and is not something I would say seriously even in MMOG chat.)</STRONG>

Posting nothing but the link to a wiki directly traslates to "read the manual you stupid noob". They are not helpful in the slightest because you do not point them to the actual information AND explain how it is relevant.

[Savok]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>Posting nothing but the link to a wiki directly traslates to "read the manual you stupid noob". They are not helpful in the slightest because you do not point them to the actual information AND explain how it is relevant.</STRONG>

If they can't figure out what part of the page is the info they need and how it is relevant, they aren't smart enough to play Dwarf Fortress.

I don't just post a link to the wiki, I post a link to the section of the page that contains what they are looking for.

[Lightning4]

quote:Originally posted by Tamren:
<STRONG>

Posting nothing but the link to a wiki directly traslates to "read the manual you stupid noob". They are not helpful in the slightest because you do not point them to the actual information AND explain how it is relevant.</STRONG>

He does link to the actual information.

I do think it's a little blunt, but saying it isn't helpful is a lie.

[ August 31, 2007: Message edited by: Lightning4 ]

[Rondol]

I'm going to pretend for a moment that I'm new to this game, and totally unfamiliar with these forums (The second part won't be hard... I almost never come by here.) "Hmm, interesting, ladeda, crossbows... Read the Wiki? Hm. A link. Whatever, what else did people say..."

To the point: Links are clicked less often than posts are read. A simple "Making the crossbows is enough to attract marksdwarves" would probably be more effective.

[Savok]

Yes, but if they aren't smart enough to click on the link, then either they are new and will soon learn or they aren't smart enough to play Dwarf Fortress. This isn't a simple, easy game!

EDIT: Additionally, wiki awareness needs to be increased a lot.

[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Savok ]

[Tamren]

Ahaha, oh wow. Sorry but that is one of the most fucking retarded things i have ever heard. If you think being an elitist prick will help this community develop then you are incredibly deluded.

This game is complicated and the graphics alone scare away more than half the potential playerbase. The remainder must be helped along until they comprehend and grow to like the game. Shoving links to the wiki will NOT accomplish this.

People who refuse the wiki link are not stupid. They are smart enough to realize that the wiki is nothing more than a CHEATING TOOL. Reading the wiki in detail destroys the sense of discovery that you would otherwise gain by figuring out a problem by hand, or talking to someone who already knows.

[4bh0r53n]

tamren, keep your language down, keep this to a discussion not a flame war.

and also i have to disagree with you about the wiki, the wiki is not a cheating tool, it is a help in assimilating new players up the incredibally steep learning curve.

[Ryven]

quote:Originally posted by the Wiki:
<STRONG>It is not known if the number of weapons created matters.</STRONG>

It's entirely possible that churning out extra crossbows to trade to the caravan is increasing the number of arriving marksdwarves.

[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Ryven ]

[Toady One]

Relevant posters: if this discussion is ongoing, please relax somewhat and reflect on the merits of including extraneous insults of either specific people or groups of people in your posts.

[Savok]

quote:It's entirely possible that churning out extra crossbows to trade to the caravan is increasing the number of arriving marksdwarves.

That would be because of ++bows, not ++trading.
Also, I never said that trading weapons doesn't increase weapondwarf immigrants; I said it does not follow from any data that has been obtained by the present time.

And Tamren? "If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet."
A similar proverb could also be "If a man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet."

If you really want anyone to respect you enough to debate with you, don't be the fool in the above proverb. Trust me, I once was in the exact same position as you, except not at bay12games.com.

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Relevant posters: if this discussion is ongoing, please relax somewhat and reflect on the merits of including extraneous insults of either specific people or groups of people in your posts.</STRONG>

Sorry, I have a problem with that. I'll try to respond in a more logical manner next time.

[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Savok ]

[Tamren]

Fine, i have a little quote for you too.
"play nice, or play alone"

This game has no multiplayer component and must rely on its community to promote talk between players AND to bring new players into the fold. Without a thriving community this game is for all intents and purposes, dead.

You already said, in your own words that people too dumb enough to go the wiki for all thier problems are beneath you and not worthy enough to play this game. Your efforts at cleaning up the supposed "ignorance" on this forum are in responce that percieved need. I can tell you right now that your efforts are nothing but detrimental. If a new player shows up and sees that the only response he can get from other players could have come from a machine. He will not be staying very long. Less players on this forum means less unique voices adding to the community.

Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. But it is WISDOM that makes you understand that a tomato does not belong in a fruit salad!

Spouting out links as if you had wiki-tourettes may make people smarter but it will not teach them HOW to apply that knowledge. The only way to do that is to provide the knowlege, then explain why it is relevant, in person.

Again, the wiki does NOT do this. Your intent may be benevolent, but your method is deeply flawed.

[Varil]

It would be better to say "Hey, you're wrong about X. Check this link<wiki> for more info."

Just saying "Read this!" with minimal context or explanation makes you very easy to ignore. Calling other people stupid for ignoring you just makes you seem inflammatory and trollish, making your link even *easier* to ignore. Acting high-and-mighty about it further compounds the problem. Congratulations, you've proven counter-productive.

[CautionToTheWind]

The internet is not your mommy and you should be THANKFUL there is a wiki and someone that links to the right page of it.

The only quote that applies here is "pearls to pigs".