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[cochramd]

What about existence of dwarves? Should game not know about them too?

He seems to have forgotten that Toady has mentioned that he plans to make the magic level of a world something you control on a slider, and as a result thinks that people spontaneously casting spells is going to be a thing in every possible world.

But anyways, what do you make of the ideas for "objects of worship" I outlined?

[nothingSpecial]

What about existence of dwarves? Should game not know about them too?

He seems to have forgotten that Toady has mentioned that he plans to make the magic level of a world something you control on a slider, and as a result thinks that people spontaneously casting spells is going to be a thing in every possible world.

But anyways, what do you make of the ideas for "objects of worship" I outlined?

It's good, sorry I was responding to GoblinCookie when you typed it.

Yet I have one small proposal.
The object that has multiple depictions can gain additional effect if it covers most of the pantheon (becoming artifact for the whole culture), but most of adherents of gods are usually worship only couple of them, and shouldn't got any more good thoughts from having depiction of some god they are not interested in, i suppose.
So if you worship Goddess of Taverns and God of Jewels, than having depiction of both of them will make you happy, but having there Goddess of Suicide wouldn't really encourage you.

[cochramd]

The object that has multiple depictions can gain additional effect if it covers most of the pantheon (becoming artifact for the whole culture), but most of adherents of gods are usually worship only couple of them, and shouldn't got any more good thoughts from having depiction of some god they are not interested in, i suppose.
So if you worship Goddess of Taverns and God of Jewels, than having depiction of both of them will make you happy, but having there Goddess of Suicide wouldn't really encourage you.

Sounds like it would only come into play if dwarfs can worship at temples that aren't assigned to a specific deity (which I believe is not the case at the moment) or if it becomes possible to designate a pantheon temple (which would be a temple of all gods), though if it did come into play it could come in very handy if dwarfs think that they need to spend time worshiping each deity that is important to them.

Another thing I just thought of: maybe music can be used to enhance worship, and priestly scholars should be able to write holy books which may be used as objects of worship.

[nothingSpecial]

Sounds like it would only come into play if dwarfs can worship at temples that aren't assigned to a specific deity (which I believe is not the case at the moment) or if it becomes possible to designate a pantheon temple (which would be a temple of all gods), though if it did come into play it could come in very handy if dwarfs think that they need to spend time worshiping each deity that is important to them.

Maybe this can be worked around if temples can be designated around object of worships, so having temple with such combination will be based onto object?

Another thing I just thought of: maybe music can be used to enhance worship, and priestly scholars should be able to write holy books which may be used as objects of worship.

As I read on wiki (but haven't tested yet) you can assign performer to temple, so it at least thought about by Toady. Holy books as objects of worship should be good, yeah.

[cochramd]

Sounds like it would only come into play if dwarfs can worship at temples that aren't assigned to a specific deity (which I believe is not the case at the moment) or if it becomes possible to designate a pantheon temple (which would be a temple of all gods), though if it did come into play it could come in very handy if dwarfs think that they need to spend time worshiping each deity that is important to them.

Maybe this can be worked around if temples can be designated around object of worships, so having temple with such combination will be based onto object?

This would come with a huge drawback; namely, that we're at the mercy of the RNG as to when a depiction of a certain deity will be produced, if it will even be produced at all. Designating temples from objects of worship would only be viable if we somehow gain the ability to create production orders for statues/figurines of specific things, and I feel doubtful that will ever happen. Maybe I should ask Toady about it, though.

[nothingSpecial]

It would be good to have "engrave a depiction of deity" order in craftdwarf's workshop. You just order it repeatedly on your unique not-placed statue and pray for variety.

[cochramd]

You must be thinking of memorial slabs (which would work), because statues don't work like that. The game decides what a statue, figurine, decoration or engraving depicts at the exact moment it is finished, picking from a list of subjects provided by the creator of the object.

Now here's the thing: Toady could reuse the code for memorial slabs to give use the ability to order statues of a particular subject whenever he wants and without doing much work. There are 3 explanations as to why he hasn't already:

• He doesn't want to have to redo it if he needs to change it later.
• He's waiting until something else he is planning creates a strong in-game need to have statues of a particular subject.
• He has no intention of doing so.

Only Toady himself knows for sure, but given how important randomness is to Dwarf Fortress, my money's on the last one.

[SixOfSpades]

If a civilization develops a secular power than matches with an existing religious power exercised by a 'god' in the past, then people can start to question the god's existence.  However both trees do not remain static, a god that previously was 'debunked' can do something new and then people can start to believe in it.

An attempt to disillusion the followers of a certain god would threaten to choke off the flow of spiritual energy toward that god, and as such, would be interpreted as a direct attack against that god. Congratulations, you just made a powerful enemy (pretty much the exact definition of a powerful enemy), and because the "miracles" you intend to perform must relate to the god's own sphere(s), you're going to have to beat him at his own game, on his own turf, when he's fighting for his life. I don't like your odds. So, this would be a viable path to supplant a god that is already dead or forgotten (or to make up an entirely new god altogether, with power over 1 or more unclaimed spheres), but not a way to usurp a deity that is still very much alive & kicking.
     Then again, deposing a god with the help of another god with a closely related sphere sounds much more plausible. This could even be one possible "real-world" perception of how gods might steal spheres from each other.

Basically, nowhere in the game would it ever mechanically establish that gods are or are not real.  It should always be theoretically possible for a character to believe that all gods are false and that religion is just a form of magic

Even in a game with the "Divine vs. Arcane" slider all the way over at Divine? I disagree--if the player wants to run the game their way, let them. Also, don't forget that this is a game with giants, dragons, and bronze colossi walking around, not to mention the more bizarre titans & forgotten beasts. With that kind of background, gods are hardly much of a stretch.

He means that, for reasons understood only by him . . . we should all stop questioning him and start agreeing with him mindlessly.

We're not going to do this again, are we? Perhaps it'd be best if you and GoblinCookie ceased responding to each other, even indirectly, for the rest of this thread.

[nothingSpecial]

You must be thinking of memorial slabs (which would work), because statues don't work like that. The game decides what a statue, figurine, decoration or engraving depicts at the exact moment it is finished, picking from a list of subjects provided by the creator of the object.

Exactly. I know that it's only slab's functionality, I just want to have it for other things that have importance. Gods for specific temples are one of them.

But not for all the things.

Sometimes I want quite the opposite: to have only the function to distribute workshops between dwarves and let them create whatever they want, similar to strange moods - with exceptions for such vital things.

[Dirst]

Sometimes I want quite the opposite: to have only the function to distribute workshops between dwarves and let them create whatever they want, similar to strange moods - with exceptions for such vital things.

* Urist McBookkeeper enters the craftdwarf's workshop, knocking over several piles of mugs.
"Hmmmm... I'm going to guess you're a worshiper of the Goddess of Longevity?  The one associated with wooden drinking vessels?"
"Why, yes I am.  She has been a light in my --"
"Honestly, I don't care.  But what I do care about is that this fort has NO BEDS because of you!"

[nothingSpecial]

Sometimes I want quite the opposite: to have only the function to distribute workshops between dwarves and let them create whatever they want, similar to strange moods - with exceptions for such vital things.

* Urist McBookkeeper enters the craftdwarf's workshop, knocking over several piles of mugs.
"Hmmmm... I'm going to guess you're a worshiper of the Goddess of Longevity?  The one associated with wooden drinking vessels?"
"Why, yes I am.  She has been a light in my --"
"Honestly, I don't care.  But what I do care about is that this fort has NO BEDS because of you!"

Exactly. That would be so fun!

Well, I suppose we first need to have historical figures as candidates for embark party, so user can look through their preferences and see what is more acceptable: to have proficient craftdwarf or to have beds built in time...

Also. If bed is an object of worship and some absent-minded migrant sleeps in it, would that be blasphemy punished by cruse?

[cochramd]

Sometimes I want quite the opposite: to have only the function to distribute workshops between dwarves and let them create whatever they want, similar to strange moods - with exceptions for such vital things.

* Urist McBookkeeper enters the craftdwarf's workshop, knocking over several piles of mugs.
"Hmmmm... I'm going to guess you're a worshiper of the Goddess of Longevity?  The one associated with wooden drinking vessels?"
"Why, yes I am.  She has been a light in my --"
"Honestly, I don't care.  But what I do care about is that this fort has NO BEDS because of you!"

Exactly. That would be so fun!

Well, I suppose we first need to have historical figures as candidates for embark party, so user can look through their preferences and see what is more acceptable: to have proficient craftdwarf or to have beds built in time...

Fun for you, maybe. I think that's going too far for the average player, though perhaps something that one can choose to do if they wish.

Also. If bed is an object of worship and some absent-minded migrant sleeps in it, would that be blasphemy punished by curse?

As a general rule of thumb? Yes. However, if it's a nice deity (or a half decent deity and all the other beds are already taken), then they'll probably let it slide. It's typically sacrilege to use the Lance of Longinus in battle, but if your life was on the line and there were no other weapons handy, Jesus would forgive you if you used it to stab one of your enemies to death. I think it would also be possible for religions traditions to develop where using an object of worship for its mundane purpose is not only acceptable but is actually part of worship. You would have some traditions that only use certain objects of worship ritualistically, like a bed decorated with a depiction of the goddess of love, marriage and pregnancy which is used by newlyweds on the eve of their wedding. You would also have traditions that demand certain objects of worship be used in day to day life; for instance, if an animal is slaughtered with a knife that is not decorated with an image of the god of cleanliness (not an actual sphere at the moment, but just bear with me) then the meat isn't "kosher". Finally, you'd have traditions where certain objects of worship are permitted to be used in day to day life; no, you don't have to make your metal weapons on the anvil with an image of the god of metal and war on it, but it's probably in your best interests to do so. You could see overlaps in these traditions within the same civilization, under the same deity and for the same kind of sacred object, as well as combinations of the above. Perhaps the god of metal and war won't be offended if you don't use one of his anvils for your everyday weaponsmithing, but would be gravely offended if you didn't use one of his anvils for creating an artifact weapon.

[nothingSpecial]

As a general rule of thumb? Yes. However, if it's a nice deity (or a half decent deity and all the other beds are already taken), then they'll probably let it slide. It's typically sacrilege to use the Lance of Longinus in battle, but if your life was on the line and there were no other weapons handy, Jesus would forgive you if you used it to stab one of your enemies to death. I think it would also be possible for religions traditions to develop where using an object of worship for its mundane purpose is not only acceptable but is actually part of worship. You would have some traditions that only use certain objects of worship ritualistically, like a bed decorated with a depiction of the goddess of love, marriage and pregnancy which is used by newlyweds on the eve of their wedding. You would also have traditions that demand certain objects of worship be used in day to day life; for instance, if an animal is slaughtered with a knife that is not decorated with an image of the god of cleanliness (not an actual sphere at the moment, but just bear with me) then the meat isn't "kosher". Finally, you'd have traditions where certain objects of worship are permitted to be used in day to day life; no, you don't have to make your metal weapons on the anvil with an image of the god of metal and war on it, but it's probably in your best interests to do so. You could see overlaps in these traditions within the same civilization, under the same deity and for the same kind of sacred object, as well as combinations of the above. Perhaps the god of metal and war won't be offended if you don't use one of his anvils for your everyday weaponsmithing, but would be gravely offended if you didn't use one of his anvils for creating an artifact weapon.

Wow.
I... I want to see that in game. That makes so much sense, and that offers so much possibilities.

[Dirst]

Fun for you, maybe. I think that's going too far for the average player, though perhaps something that one can choose to do if they wish.

The problem with putting this on a slider is that the game will have a hard time determining how difficult it is making the game.  Though a generic "autonomy" slider might work.  All the way to the left would be like typing "zero players" into Joshua's tic-tac-toe game.

[Azerty]

Could we envision aniconism, or deities who don't want to be depicted?