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Author Topic: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - Town Victory  (Read 30848 times)

NJW2000

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #180 on: September 11, 2015, 07:12:19 pm »

That's most of the thing against me. That and my relentless pursuit of Frostmoon rather than anyone else, though I won't have time to see her post due to sleep, despite having rudely hurried her on :P
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Ddynamo

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #181 on: September 11, 2015, 07:13:42 pm »

Woo!

I've never played Mafia before, but ironically I've hosted it before. (Actually, it's still running.) Anyway, what's going on?
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fillipk

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #182 on: September 11, 2015, 07:25:46 pm »

PFP so no quotes,

Whoever asked why I stopped voting griff, I think it was Roo, Tntey seems more scummy to me at the moment for reasons I've already stated, his reason for voting grid was I made a few good points, and I don't think I've seen him scum hunt at all. I know he claimed cop but he hasn't been acting like town so he probably just claimed to not be lynched day 1.
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Griffionday

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #183 on: September 11, 2015, 07:29:50 pm »

@Griffionday, if this question was so blatantly scumslip, how on earth did it get by? It was my first post, didn't people even look at it?
I saw it, found it amusing as it read like you were blatant scum, but figured it was probably just a really dumb question that you hadn't thought the logic through on. Then promptly forgot about it, and developed a moderate town read on you due to your vote on frostmoon and the way you voted and were not passive about sticking to your read and vote.

Then you asked everyone to join you in suspecting Moonlit (who happened to be the only person voting you) on really weak grounds which felt quite off. I re-read your posts and saw that you had done nothing of value throughout the day and didn't seem to really be hunting scum and /far/ to sure of your reads which made me more suspicious of you, which caused me to reread your opening post in a new light.  My mind wasn't impressed by your panicked reaction to the slightest pressure on you.

... And yes, I know my distaste for questions that are addressed to "Everyone" is somewhat irrational, I try not let it color my reads too much.
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Ddynamo

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #184 on: September 11, 2015, 07:40:58 pm »

So, from what I can tell, we have potential scum in NJW2000, Roo,  Griffionday, and Moonlit. Did I miss anyone?
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Frostmoon

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #185 on: September 11, 2015, 07:43:12 pm »

So, from what I can tell, we have potential scum in NJW2000, Roo,  Griffionday, and Moonlit. Did I miss anyone?
You missed me. I'm tied with tntey for the most votes, which means we have a no lynch on route.
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Ddynamo

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #186 on: September 11, 2015, 07:44:22 pm »

So suspect list consists of.
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Ddynamo

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #187 on: September 11, 2015, 07:46:42 pm »

So suspect list consists of.
  • Tntey
  • Griffionday
  • Moonlit
  • Roo
  • Frostmoon
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Frostmoon

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #188 on: September 11, 2015, 11:40:54 pm »

~~~~~WARNING: FROSTMOON IS STILL ANGRY--PLEASE PROCEED WITH CAUTION~~~~~~


fillipk:
No I don't think both IC's are scum but I haven't gotten a read on persus13 yet so I can't say.
Wait, what? Does that mean you had a read on kilakan who, before he was replaced by roo, hadn't posted yet? What? XD

Everyone what is your typical scum hunting strategy and what do you think never works. 
I like to ask questions to multiple people, and then respond to whatever they said with more questions if I can. I also like to ask people about what they said to other people 'cause, ya know, I'm not the only person in this game. As for stuff that doesn't quite work, I'd say Griffion's current playstyle is rather anti-town. Not that it never works, as a lot of the stuff he's asked has been great, but the stuff he's told people not to do has been...bad. Like the whole "other people's reads are too ethereal to make sense of", while I think I see what he means,not posting reads is something that very much helps scum. Actually, just his general "lone wolf" style might work as say, a third party, but is just generally anti-town. You'll see more of this in Griffion's section. (Note that I do not necessarily think that Griffion's  scum--in fact, I really can't read him right now without being afraid that my read's based more on anger than actual play, so yeah.)

If people don't worry too much about the questions and answer them they are less likely to lie and it just makes it harder to lie later.
Huh. Do you think that only scum players worry about answering questions?

Griffionday you being opposed to an extend when we don't have a scummy lynch target is bad enough, but then you also go and say that everyone should just make reads and vote on who to lynch without leaving much room for a discussion, almost as if you don't want to give Fostmoon a chance to save himself.  Also you have done two things to scum hunt, one you voted for kilakan, and defended why you did that.  After that you did a form of active lurking where you didn't contribute much, just helped people out and acted like an IC, which I get since the Ic's are inactive.  Then you write a well written attack on frostmoon and why he is scum. 
Quote from:  Griffionday
Your reactions in particular were interesting to me. You seemed confused certainly, but I didn't feel like it shook your views of either of us.  Your questions seemed to take away from the absurdity of it, and downplay things rather than try to genuinely get more information about us from your questions. Which made you feel like you already knew more about what was happening there than you should have if you only knew that you were town.
This point is a little invalid since your vote didn't shake my view of you at all, now moonlit's vote made me a bit suspicious of them but not too much since it was a pretty good thing to do looking back on it.  To be honest I find Frostmoon a bit suspicious too, but not as suspicious as you not wanting an extend with only your target having a clear case on them.
  Griffion is not, in this case, scummy for opposing the extend. He had a good reason for objecting; another day of nothing would do, well, nothing. In fact, it would (marginally) help scum, as it would give them more time to formulate their reads, or to set up gambits.


Griffion:
It is good to finally have you back!
Thank you. I would've posted earlier the that you said this, but I had school, and big posts take hours for me to make sure they're actually of quality, and yesterday, well...I got angry, which probably would've made my post nothing but a giant rant.

Completely serious, no sarcasm.
Huh. Any reason for choosing kilakan over Persus? Do you think that voting a random newbie would've netted the same response? Why gambit? Is there any benefit to gambiting in RVS over any of time in the game?

tntey
I am assuming you were claiming a power role, and not claiming a mafia role.  What role, and how will you use it?
...no. Just, no. This is role-fishing. This is what I meant by anti-town gameplay, by the way. You know, I don't believe that keeping track of whether or not someone has a power role is scummy--however, asking someone to claim ("What role?") day 1 is something that will only benefit scum. I mean, wooo, town might know who the cop is! But the issue is, scum does, too, now. And scum's willing to kill tntey if they think he is a power role. What did you hope to gain from this question? But this, combined with your earlier post...
I as a rule don't like asking people their reads except under very limited circumstances.  They tend to be rather aethereal things, difficult to pin down, and can change based on developments in the game.  Also they can be a lot of work to put together and write out, and I am lazy.  However, to play this game it is required that you have and act on reads, as they are the central point of the entire game; they should determine your votes, who you are trying to get more information on and who you are trying to prove to everyone else as mafia.  You can't safely rely on anyone else to give you your reads, as either they are just as ignorant as you, or they will be trying to give you false information.

Do you have reads? Meaning are there people you think are more or less likely to be mafia than others? (Note, a yes or no statement is sufficient here; I expect you to show me your reads by acting on them, rather than just parroting them to me)

A note for your reads: I tend to think that dividing read into "town" and "mafia" can be quite blinding. Those titles have connotations of behavioral patterns, but anyone can be belligerent, not want to play, confusing, cautious, stubborn, panicking or friendly.  There is at least one important different though; a mafia member will know who everyone else is.  Thus looking at how people react and seeing if they seem to be acting with more information than is reasonable for them to have is a good way to assess your reads.
...creates a HECK NO reaction. No. Just, no! This is verrrrry anti-town! Do you know who not asking for reads helps? Scum! How? Because scum are more likely to have a set of null reads! And yeah, they might be a bit "ethereal", but they still keep the game moving. If someone whom someone thought was scum flips town, ask they about how they feel about that. If they though they were town but they flip scum, ask them about it. Ask them if their reads have changed! I dunno! They just...help keep the game moving. In fact, your playstyle was the topic for one of those rants I had written out. It's, just, no, in general. I'm really sorry, but please, this play really helps scum, and if you're town, you don't want that, right?

In general I think questions to everyone are a waste of time.
I...disagree completely. Questions to everyone can be useful, like asking everyone what their reads are. Heck, asking people what they think of another player's play isn't necessarily scummy--it gives more insight to the person being asked. (Though I don't quite see how that last point had anything to do with the "everyone questions" thing, so oops. XD)

Firstly, as Frostmoon said, she is a lady, and the fact that you only refer to her as masculine is rather indicative of you not reading anything she says close enough: which you /should/ be doing if you are a town member who doesn't absolutely know that she is a mafia member.
...umm, misgendering me isn't a scumtell, Griffion. Interesting that you kinda defend me for a bit, but okay. I think I get why you did it, in this case, as it was less to defend me and more to tear apart NJW's argument, right? Also, tntey didn't necessarily claim cop, unless I missed something (which is all too possible). There are other power roles, after all. 


Moonlit: Hey, you. Yeah, you. What do you think about me "buddying" you? Do you believe I'm buddying you? Do you think I'm scum? If I am scum, who do you think is my scumbuddy? Why is it not you, as everyone else thinks it is if I flip scum? How much of the Jack AT's intro post (as in, the opening post, the one that started the thread) did you read? Why ask about Scum ICs? Why am I only asking you these questions now?

Frostmoon: When I was asking about 'the interactions between Griffionday and NJW2000', it was merely a placeholder. I was basically asking what you thought about what had been said.
Hmm. Well, I hope that this post explains what I think of them. Why ask me, in particular?

Nah, you're just more suspicious than the others
How was NJW more suspicious than everyone else? Why a pressure vote so late into the day? Why was NJW more suspicious than tntey?


tntey:
I am going to lynch moonlight I guess. He did jump on griffin in the beginning
...what. Out of everything that happened so far, that's what you find so suspicious? An RVS vote? I mean, sure, I think that Moonlit's town. Even I, though, could see more legitimate reasons to vote Moonlit. Do you think he faked his "townslip"? Do you think that his early gambit was scummy? Or...?

Unvote. griffonday Fillkp made some good points.
Again, what? Seriously, what the heck? Why is Griffion suddenly so scummy for objecting to an extend?


NJW:
While I'd rather not be kicked out the game on the first day, one vote isn't a pressure move. Or it's a pretty lame one. I find your sudden and apparently unmotivated change odd, and even odder the fact that you tell me you're just trying to pressurise me, but I guess it's consistent with earlier flailing on your part.

Moonlit: if all you're doing is flailing when doing stuff like this, and single unmotivated votes aren't gonna scare someone this late in the day, why didn't you bandwagon someone to freak them out? It would have been equivalent to an early flail, I think. You vote seems to be heading us towards nolynch.
First of all, I think that pressure vote did exactly what was intended. Second of all, you're the one flailing, NJW. Sure, I don't get why Moonlit would vote you, and that's really weird, but you're reaction's even weirder. I get being peeved at badly explained votes--heck, I'm completely and utterly sick of all the inane reasons people have been voting for (I almost ranted about it yesterday, actually), but seriously, this is a bad way to react. Especially since I actually had a town lean on you--while you were tunneling, your reasons for voting me were moderately sound. So, what do you think of this quote from Griffion?:
I think Moonlit Shadow's vote was the single most brilliant thing to happen in this game.  It was not flailing, it was not "scummy", and it certainly wasn't something that only a noob would do.  I would be quite proud of that gambit were I the one who pulled it off, and am eager to see the results of it.
Why do you think that what Moonlit claimed was gambit flailing? {HINDSIGHT:You know what, I think I just realized why you flailed at this vote. You're angry that a lot of the votes this game have pretty bad reasonings, right? Yeah. I with you there. But still, you did kinda flail.}

@FROSTMOON: can you EVER show me a time in which you attacked or pressurised Frostmoon in any way, or were anything but friendly towards him? (Above relevant too)
[joke]Oh yeah, I can show you soooo many times where I pressured myself![/joke] You're talking about Moonlit, right? Well, here's the thing--you wanna know why I stopped asking him questions? I'll give you a hint: you can see it in the mirror! In other words, you're the darn reason I stopped pressing Moonlit earlier on. Remember this gem?:
Frostmoon:why are you pointing at Moonlit when it's pretty blantantly obvious that his play has been noobishly scummy, and he's just nominating people for info/RP/weird draconic reasons, as far as we can tell? Mighn't it be better to see if he calls them off quickly, near the end of the day?
In other words, I agreed with what you had said then about how it was silly to press Moonlit, as he wasn't adequately responding to most questions about that. In fact, that was the other reason why I didn't follow up on Moonlit's evasion of one of my first few questions in the game--I didn't think he would answer well. And then Moonlit revealed that it was all a gambit, and I thought "A gambit? Why would he gambit like that...?" and I kinda felt like Moonlit may be scum, and while he probably wasn't  (my gut was saying that he was town), I kept an eye on him, but decided against asking questions, as I didn't think any of mine would actually do anything to him. And then he dropped this, and I thought "...huh. He might be gambiting, but I don't think he is this time. Still, I'll keep an eye on him, but I'll note this down as a 'townslip'." Does this explain anything?

Escpecially if it was the thing that led to Frostmoon sitting out for a bit :-[
No, no, it's fine, really. :3 People always misgender me on this forum--it's not that that infuriated me. It was...a lot of other stuff. But seriously, it's fine. Really. Same goes to pretty well everyone else here, even if you did anger me--I...have a bit of a temper. And I really don't want you guys to feel upset, or anything, so that's why I took a break. You wanna know why though, that I'm so conversational? Because this is a game, and I'm here to have fun. So yes, some of my comments, like this one, are conversational. It'd be that way for no matter whether I was town or scum (or third party). In fact, the reason why I stopped being as friendly after a while was because I starting getting more and more fed up with this game, and it was harder to be friendly when you're upset.

You know what the weird thing is, though? I don't think NJW's scum. Sure, he's been tunneling like all heck, but I still don't think he's scum. I could be wrong, but, well....


kilaroo: (a.k.a. roo) Hey, welcome to the game! :3
Frostmoon Am gonna catch up today; for now i will vote fm. A combo of making posts with nothing in them and questions that do not forward the game and instead makenothers post fluff. I know I know, but roo it was rvs. I wanna get into this game. It is a high possibility of me changing it as I am on the first page. Although I shouldn't say that for 'pressure' reasons. Now FM wont feel the heat. We'll see though if they have more questions like the gem above.
What the heck was even the purpose of that vote? To hop on a bandwagon? To tell me that I'm not allowed to actually be friendly, curious, and, most importantly, have fun in this "game"?

Oh, and you never replied to this, kilaroo:
kilakan: You're quite popular today, it seems~! :3 What do you think of these votes? Do bandwagons usually start during RVS?
How do you feel about being the victim of a gambit?

I'd be okay with a filipk lynch.
...what. First you vote me for an RVS question, and then this. Why? Why is filipk scummier than me, your previous target?


filipkis scum. Die scum, die.
...what. Again. How is fillipk so scummy?

I'm here hitting the refresh button while everyone else is jacking off. Fine I'll go read fm vs nsfw.
  Frostmoon VS Not Safe For Work? So...me against porn? XD Okay then.
 
wait is njw blatant scum?
You know the drill. Yet another "what"-inducing post.


DoctorDynamo: (a.k.a. Ddynamo)  Hello, and welcome to the game~! :3 Any ideas about who might be scum? Does that list include anyone you think is scum?


Spoiler: Offtopic once more (click to show/hide)
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Jack A T

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #189 on: September 12, 2015, 12:33:51 am »

Votecount:
*Frostmoon - NJW2000, Griffionday, (2)
*Griffionday - tntey (1)
*NJW2000 - The Moonlit Shadow (1)
*tntey - Ddynamo, fillipk (2)
*fillipk - roo (1)
*Ddynamo - (0)
*The Moonlit Shadow -(0)
*roo - (0)
*Persus13 - (0)
No Lynch - (0)

Not voting: Frostmoon and Persus13

Extension requests: 0/4
Shorten requests: 0/5

Day ends in just under 24 hours, at 9:00 PM PST Saturday, September 12th.  There are two extensions available.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 12:47:22 am by Jack A T »
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fillipk

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #190 on: September 12, 2015, 12:45:04 am »

Jack you might want to fix the vote count replacing Kilakan with Roo and Persus with Ddynamo.
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Jack A T

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #191 on: September 12, 2015, 12:47:54 am »

Jack you might want to fix the vote count replacing Kilakan with Roo and Persus with Ddynamo.
Fixed the Kilakan/roo error, thanks.  Ddynamo replaced DoctorMcTaalik, not Persus.
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FUCK YOU JACK
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YOU TRAITOROUS SWINE.
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Griffionday

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #192 on: September 12, 2015, 03:42:15 am »

Frostmoon:
Umph... A lot of good points in here.

Spoilers to keep length more manageable:


On to your other points. I /know/ that I was acting as a lone-wolf player, keeping my reads really close to my chest and not acting on most of them.  My main reason is that my prior play-style is exactly the reverse, calling out every single thing everyone does that seems even slightly out of line and using their responses to generate my reads on them.  This was not sustainable or helpful, and so I was hopeful that trying a different route that explicitly forced me /not/ to comment on everything would allow me to enjoy a game and town down my post counts (not working so far, my post count is in the lead by a lot).

A key part of the playstyle I am/was trying to adopt is to draw pressure from other people; which is not really something I got.  I genuinely want to seem very slightly off, but not in a fashion that is actually against town or truly from being mafia.  Really, the fact that no one was pressuring me about my play and calling me out on what I was up to in the early game really bothered me which led to pushing things a bit to far. For example: Moonlit and I were buddying each-other really hard at the beginning of this game.  Not sure about him, but on my part that was deliberate, I had a firm town read on him for other reason and so didn't think that he was trying to make me like him; and so I used the opportunity to buddy him which is something a lot of people find suspicious to see if it would draw any comments.  Yes I might die, but I could leave cases behind on everyone and help town by having a point of reference that they know was at least honest.  Nothing.  Maybe I am doing these things wrong.

Huh. Any reason for choosing kilakan over Persus? Do you think that voting a random newbie would've netted the same response? Why gambit? Is there any benefit to gambiting in RVS over any of time in the game?
None, that was a spur of the moment choice.  Everything was out of my control and not as planned, so who knows.  Gambits are interesting and keep the mafia on their toes as they don't know what is going on.  Yes; gambiting in the end of the day seems pointless in a game like this that is fairly mountainous.  In a power heavy game, those may dictate one's gambits.

...no. Just, no. This is role-fishing. -snip- What did you hope to gain from this question? -snip- Also, tntey didn't necessarily claim cop, unless I missed something (which is all too possible). There are other power roles, after all.
He claimed a power role to save himself and so I was trying to push him far enough to actually save himself. Yes, I am aware that he is likely to be night killed because of his claim, /however/ he is already at a significant risk of that just because of his claim and completing it is not likely to put him at any further risk.  I would rather him be night killed and lynch a mafia member today than allow town to lynch him over his play that seems to me to be utter noobishness opaqueness which translates as suspicious to a good number of people.  Or worse, allow mafia to control the lynch onto him, clearing a power role, and picking off another townie at night.

Do not lynch tntey today: Doing so hurts town

Now then.  My vote is still on you, as I still don't like your reaction to the early game goings on.  That's not really a question though so... could you explain what you were thinking, and why you seemed to be so nonchalant about the whole thing here?

Also here you seem to say that Moonlit is giving you a mafia impression but you don't want to vote because you fell for the same issue before, yet here you say he is a town read. What (if anything) changed?

And do you have any comment on this?
Also, it's a very small thing, but it bothers me that your phrase here:
I'm pursing Moonlit because first of all, his "bandwagon" RVS vote was so far the most notable thing to happen in this game.
was pretty much verbatim my response to Moonlit here:
That it is, yet your question is still the most notable thing to happen in this game.
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Griffionday

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #193 on: September 12, 2015, 03:51:42 am »

Griffion:
It is good to finally have you back!
Thank you. I would've posted earlier the that you said this, but I had school, and big posts take hours for me to make sure they're actually of quality, and yesterday, well...I got angry, which probably would've made my post nothing but a giant rant.
I did mean that sincerely, I am glad that you are back.  I fully understand your comment about big posts; I have a similar problem. 

Have you noticed how posts will bloat as well? Like you make 3 or 4 points, they respond to them all, you then respond to their responses and have another couple points... It got real bad real quick for me.  Which is part of what led me to forcefully change my play-style for this game, ask I can't keep that kind of energy up.
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NJW2000

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Re: Beginner's Mafia LVI: The Messengers - D1: Believing Drunken Rants
« Reply #194 on: September 12, 2015, 04:08:54 am »

Anyone who's playedwith roo before: are short, confusion inducing, weird posts a roo thing? I know he gets lynched D1 a bit more than others from what I've read, is this partially why?

@Moonlit/Frostmoon Yeah, Frostmoon's explanation does show that I might have reacted to something I myself had caused due to my suspiscions with accusations... whoops? Anyway, I guess Moonlit doesn't seem scummy for the reasons I initially posted on him, which were fairly bad reasons. I will be a tiny bit more suspiscious of them if Frostmoon's scum, but currently, I guess I'm dropping my accusations.

I am still voting Frostmoon, though her replies weren't particularly scummy, as far as I can tell, except for her referring to a "townslip", which is just weird. I know what that would be. I just don't know how one could tell it wasn't an obvious but indistuinguishable Mafia gambit, without prior knowledge. She seems to have changed style a little from the beginning, after I called her out a lot.
 
---------------
After seeing Griffion's stuff:

RE: Tntey thing: thinking out loud: we fail to lynch him, mafia rolecop him, he is nightkilled if cop, probably not if not. Now, would he be a liar if he wasn't a role player? And though he's trying to save himself, lynch all liars! So I agree about not lynching TNTey, but if he doesn't get nightkilled, we lynch him tommorrow for lying/being mafia?

  This would, however, mean that mafia could rolecop him, and not nightkill  if he had a role, so we lynch a town role the next day. So this route is not an amazing one to go down, I believe.
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One wheel short of a wagon
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