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Author Topic: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.  (Read 60324 times)

tryrar

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #240 on: November 04, 2015, 04:11:21 pm »

Huh, so I don't think I need steamworks actually ON to power buildings, which is good news since I need the coal more than the stuff steamworks gives me. On a side note, is building magnetos worth the oil hit at this stage? I don't actually have them yet, but looking at the tech tree I could get them easily, and was wondering if it was worth the cost.
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This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

beorn080

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #241 on: November 04, 2015, 09:23:37 pm »

Huh, so I don't think I need steamworks actually ON to power buildings, which is good news since I need the coal more than the stuff steamworks gives me. On a side note, is building magnetos worth the oil hit at this stage? I don't actually have them yet, but looking at the tech tree I could get them easily, and was wondering if it was worth the cost.
With 12 magnetos and 18 steamworks, they give +89% production. To pretty much everything. They're worth it, and oil can be helped a lot by biofuel processing I think, which lets biolabs turn catnip into oil at a given rate.

Edit: With High pressure engine and Fuel injector, which drops coal use by 40%, I only lose 3 coal per second with them on vs them off, thanks to them boosting magnetos. A couple more of each and I think I'll actually start losing coal production with steamworks off. Plus the slow passive manuscript gain is a nice bonus.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 10:05:12 pm by beorn080 »
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Zangi

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #242 on: November 05, 2015, 02:05:55 pm »

Don't forget, once you get the upgrade, steamworks automatically converts wood/minerals to beam/slab... and later iron to plate.  (Once a year, when the storage is capped.)
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beorn080

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #243 on: November 05, 2015, 06:54:08 pm »

I just hit 16 magnetos, and 20 steamworks, and now get a bonus from running steamworks rather then a deficit to my coal by running the steamworks
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Ustxu Iceraped the Frigid Crystal of Slaughter was a glacier titan. It was the only one of its kind. A gigantic feathered carp composed of crystal glass. It has five mouths full of treacherous teeth, enormous clear wings, and ferocious blue eyes. Beware its icy breath! Ustxu was associated with oceans, glaciers, boats, and murder.

Metalax

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #244 on: November 05, 2015, 07:09:12 pm »

Don't forget, once you get the upgrade, steamworks automatically converts wood/minerals to beam/slab... and later iron to plate.  (Once a year, when the storage is capped.)
And that can be further upgraded to do so twice a year.
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varsovie

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #245 on: November 05, 2015, 07:58:57 pm »

I don't have reddit account, so if someone can bug report there for me.

I have fully upgraded factories (no paragon-locked upgrades, I try to go very far without reset).
So far everytime I made a factory my "workshop efficiency" went up, but passing from 33 to 34 factory gave me a small diminishing return, so I have to run 33/34 for maximum efficiency. Note that I'm no energy blocked.

As an example, with 34 822 cultures and 72 workshop, making maximum manuscripts makes me
31 fac : +597.690 manuscript crafted
32 fac : +602.040 manuscript crafted
33 fac : +606.390 manuscript crafted
34 fac : +603.720 manuscript crafted

In the workshop window my craft efficiency does go up 5% from 597 to 602.

EDIT: It seems like a rounding error, smaller numbers like a single kerosen, scales up properly from +10.570 to +10.620 kerosene crafted.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 08:15:47 pm by varsovie »
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tryrar

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #246 on: November 05, 2015, 08:17:14 pm »

Well, I have kitten scientists, so I don't really need the autocraft of the steamworks :P.

That said, I should probably turn them on for at least the manuscript creation
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This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #247 on: November 06, 2015, 06:51:23 am »

Just grabbed Renaissance (the 750-paragon price ratio upgrade)- going to do a quick reset and skip Unobtanium Huts. Dang. Field #226 is only 20.5k catnip, observatory #145 is only about 12 times as expensive as observatory #1...
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Metalax

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #248 on: November 06, 2015, 12:54:36 pm »

How much Paragon should you have available to spend the first time you push through to getting metaphysics upgrades for it to be worth it? I'm planning on keeping 200 or so in my bank for the paragon bonus, which I should reach by the end of this run.
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Toaster

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #249 on: November 06, 2015, 01:42:04 pm »

You'd probably want to be in the 200-250 range to push to unlocking metaphysics.  That said, the first ratio upgrades are worth far more than the paragon you paid for them, even if you're below the paragon DR point of 150.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #250 on: November 08, 2015, 05:36:41 am »

I've installed a productivity enhancer to restrict me to one hour of kitten a day. It's the Skinner box to end all Skinner boxes...
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #251 on: November 08, 2015, 10:09:26 am »

How much Paragon should you have available to spend the first time you push through to getting metaphysics upgrades for it to be worth it?

The first metaphysics uprgrade you'll want only cost 5 paragon, and it would be worth it even if you were only able to purchase that and nothing else. The  reason to wait is that getting to space without any upgrades takes a moderately silly amount of oil, which means many dozens of thousands of steel worth of oil wells. Having paragon reduces the steel requirement to reasonable levels. ~200 paragon is a reasonable ballpark for your first visit to space. I did my first space run at 95, and I regretted trying that early.

Note that unlocking Metaphysics will altogether require about 800 uranium, 500 uranium cap, an oil cap of 55,000 and well over 1000 starcharts.

LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #252 on: November 10, 2015, 08:28:34 am »

So I decided to finally do a unicorn/time crystal/BLS run. Usually when I've built a sky palace just because I can, I end up with an alicorn or two before I end up resetting anyway. Current run, I'm on year 182 with +3.441 unicorns/second, 56 ziggurats and four sky palaces. Over 400 kittens and about 100 game years and two real life days past the time I'd usually reset.

Not a single alicorn.

I suppose that's not surprising. The math is...unfavorable. Each sky palace gives .002% chance per day, I have four, so on average that works out to an alicorn roughly every 31 years.  None in ~100 is definitely into the "unlucky" range, but by no means improbable.

Still, I'd hoped for better results. At current rate, it's about 36 hours per black liquid sorrow. I need four more to build a pyramid. So a week. More like two or three since I don't leave the game running 24/7 and game time passes more slowly when windows logs me out for inactivity. But spending tears on BLS and spending them on more sky palaces is mutually exclusive. I'd hope to build some palaces and simply afk for a while and end up with both.

Hopefully as my faith bonus increases the pace will pick up.

But for anyone considering a unicorn run, even with 50+ ziggurats and dozens of millions of faith, it's still weeks-long slow.

EDIT
Ok, I've done some number crunching and bought some stuff, and ~12 game years later I have that down to 4.5 days to unlock the leviathan trade, and from there it's a day at most of trading to get all the time crystals. And presumably over the next few days my faith multiplier will speed  that up. So maybe 3-4 days. Much better than weeks.

EDIT
Jumping through the hoops to access leviathans looks like it will be be faster than I predicted. ~38 hours later and I'm on year 292 with 18,749 tears. out of 40,000 needed. Only 4 alicorns though. Looks like I'll have a full set of time crystals before I can get even one from alicorns. It's all because of faith. Currently receiving a +542% bonus from 147 million faith, with a rate of about 2,8 million per hour. 14.896 unicorns/second. Less than 3 minutes per tear conversion, 61 ziggurats.

Should have it finished tomorrow.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #253 on: November 13, 2015, 01:34:05 am »

Yeah, I'm in the same boat- I'm about 2500 tears away from a black pyramid, but I still only have 3 alicorns.

Starting to realize the real power of faith, too...currently getting a 335% bonus from my accumulated faith, and when I reset I'll more than double the amount of faith that gets accumulated when I praise the sun.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #254 on: November 18, 2015, 10:18:54 pm »

So I'm now a week into leviathans and time crystals and so forth. Don't really like the mechanic.

I have anachronomany, flux condensators, a couple black pyramids and a chronosphere, black liquid sorrow capped and ~22 time crystals sitting around. And yet even with 10 sky palaces and 1 unicorn utopia I've yet to collect enough alicorns for even a single time crystal. I just don't see how they're worth bothering with.

Next problem is that the leviathan spawning is terribly irregular. With only a single black pyramid it's only 3.5%. You can build more, as well as markers to increase the spawn rate, but it's generally low-ish, and worst of all, even when they do finally spawn they despawn after a while. So even if you build a couple pyramids and afk for 20 hours, the odds of there being any leviathans when you get back is still very low. So low that it's way easier to savescum for them. Save the game a couple days before winter ends, reload if you don't get leviathans.

Now, I realize I'm complaining about both sides of this. I'm complaining that it's too easy to get time crystals from leviathans for alicorns to make any sense while at the same time I'm complaining that it's too difficult to get leviathans. But ultimately the problem I have with both mechanics is the RNG. Wait a long time and maybe something will happen and maybe it won't. And wait a long time and maybe it will happen but since you're not sitting at the keyboard, it went away. Its' a bad mechanic for an idle game. if leviathans stayed until they were used, I think it wouldn't bother me. AFK until they show up. But requiring the player to sit at the keyboard when the lucky event happens invites savescumming. And if you do, the entire design falls apart.

And the whole thing is of questionable usefulness anyway. The whole points of time crystals is to shave time off the early part of a reset. But in the week I've spent collecting time crystals and compendiums I could have done two full resets without them. The whole system is underwhelming. At +2.4 unobtainium per second and 150 tradeposts, it's about 2 hours to get 3 time crystals. The guide on the wiki recommends 5 chronospheres, which is about 7.4 time crystals. So If you savescum for leviathans, it's about 5 hours to get there, and that would probably shave about a day off your run time.5 hours to save 24 is a good trade.

But that's if you savescum.

If you don't, it would probably generally take days of sitting there hoping to get lucky on levbaithan spawning, slowly building up and hoping you get lucky enough to receive black liquid sorrow when you trade so you can build more pyramids so to increase your chances of getting lucky again...until eventually you have enough time crystals. Plus you'd never want to reset without a full set of black liquid sorrow, which means yet more waiting hoping to get lucky when you trade before you actually reset. When you could instead have spent that time resetting and doing another run without chronospheres.

Presumably there's a balance point where it makes more sense. Maybe with a couple hundred billion faith my unicorn production rate would be sufficiently faster that time crystals could be procured quickly enough for it to be a net time saver. And if it were high enough, maybe you could convert for BLS rather than having to wait to get lucky and trade for it, so no needing to wait for the RNG at the end of run.

Overall though, the whole thing seems badly designed. And even if you do get to the point where it does make sense, the primary benefit of faster resets would be the ability to collect paragon more quickly. But to even be able to do this you kind of have to already be at the point where paragon isn't a big limiting factor. Yes, a recent update added new paragon upgrades, so maybe it will speed up grinding for them, but altogether the late game unicorn/leviathan/timecrystal/etc stuff seems poorly designed. And not even finished. Presumably the unimplemented necrocorn mechanic is intended to solve the leviathan depspawning problem, but even if it does it just means that alicorns are still not useful at all except to turn them into necrocorns, and it's all RNG as to whether your leviathans show up and give you enough black liquid sorrow to reset faster than the time you save from having chronospheres.

Bloodrizer, if you're reading this...this entire mechanic seems weak and poorly designed to me.

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