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Author Topic: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.  (Read 60364 times)

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #195 on: October 08, 2015, 09:47:57 am »

Gotcha. I'm getting to the end of this run- got all the storage upgrades, huts are capped, log houses are one build from being capped.

...though it looks like I could maybe get another hut and some extra log houses by building a few more harbors. I've got Kitten Scientists, so this can be left to grind overnight. I reset last time with 125 kittens, and it probably won't be very much more this go-round. I'm shooting for doubling my paragon. I have 62- the 67 figure was a typo- so I'll only need 132 kittens to make that happen. May be able to snag some unicorn tears, too. (Oh, wait, those aren't the same as black liquid sorrow...shouldn't have bought all those ziggurats...)

Is there really any reason not to sell my science buildings en masse when I've gotten to the point in a run where further research is pointless because I'm about to reset? I can't really think of one, they don't store anything but science and culture, and I don't need any more compendiums or blueprints.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 10:26:43 am by FearfulJesuit »
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LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #196 on: October 08, 2015, 06:32:01 pm »

May be able to snag some unicorn tears, too. (Oh, wait, those aren't the same as black liquid sorrow...shouldn't have bought all those ziggurats...)

Once you have the Megalomania upgrade from Metaphysics, 10,000 tears can be converted to one black liquid sorrow. Don't worry about that any time soon. The whole unicorn tech tree is all very late game stuff.

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Is there really any reason not to sell my science buildings en masse when I've gotten to the point in a run where further research is pointless because I'm about to reset? I can't really think of one, they don't store anything but science and culture, and I don't need any more compendiums or blueprints.

No, you may as well. It can shave several hours off a reset. But do wait until you're ready to reset soon. There are a whole bunch of weird little bonuses that come from science buildings. Culture, catnip conversion efficiency, kitten skill training bonuses, celestial event frequency, etc.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #197 on: October 09, 2015, 01:40:05 am »

May be able to snag some unicorn tears, too. (Oh, wait, those aren't the same as black liquid sorrow...shouldn't have bought all those ziggurats...)

Once you have the Megalomania upgrade from Metaphysics, 10,000 tears can be converted to one black liquid sorrow. Don't worry about that any time soon. The whole unicorn tech tree is all very late game stuff.

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Is there really any reason not to sell my science buildings en masse when I've gotten to the point in a run where further research is pointless because I'm about to reset? I can't really think of one, they don't store anything but science and culture, and I don't need any more compendiums or blueprints.

No, you may as well. It can shave several hours off a reset. But do wait until you're ready to reset soon. There are a whole bunch of weird little bonuses that come from science buildings. Culture, catnip conversion efficiency, kitten skill training bonuses, celestial event frequency, etc.

Yeah, I got to the point where I was looking at poaching about ten more kittens and doubling my paragon, or watching everything slowly ossify (just before Rocketry and a couple of other expensive techs). I'm now on my third run, and boy howdy is this fast.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #198 on: October 09, 2015, 08:45:41 am »

just before Rocketry and a couple of other expensive techs

If your're planning to go to space next run, this might possibly save you some frustration: don't even bother with rocketry until you have both nuclear fission and particle physics. Rocketry allows you to go to space, but you'll need several hundred uranium in order to do anything useful once you're there. Trading for all of it is impractical. Just build an accelerator or two and wait it out. You'll also want a 55,000 (not 45,000) oil cap and about 1000 starcharts. A couple tens of thousands of titanium also wouldn't hurt, though you don't need it all at once.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #199 on: October 13, 2015, 12:23:30 pm »

Gotcha. Currently sitting at 115 kittens on run #3, with a bunch of workshop upgrades. I'll probably let the game idle overnight to grab a bunch of basic infrastructure like lumber mills and mines. Huts are capped at just under a million wood (with concrete huts). I'm still popping out mansions at a reasonable clip, and would like to get to at least 140-150 kittens this run. The Zebra trade is beginning to switch over from "I desperately need more titanium" to "I have no idea what I'm going to do with all this titanium", as is my steel production, so I think it'll be smooth sailing for a while until I hit another wall. How eager should I be to pop out Factories? I've got 55 workshops, and they're starting to get expensive.

By the way, there's a new beta release that has a few new toys, including the ability to craft rocket fuel from oil.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 12:51:14 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #200 on: October 13, 2015, 03:31:29 pm »

"I have no idea what I'm going to do with all this titanium", as is my steel production

Space exploration will eat all the steel and titanium you can throw at it. Just to get started you'll need tens of thousands of each. You may even find that it's so expensive that you have to dial it back and do paragon runs for a while, in which case all your steel and titanium go to mansions.

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How eager should I be to pop out Factories? I've got 55 workshops, and they're starting to get expensive.

I haven't found factories to be cost effective. Their bonus isn't multiplicitive with workshops. The update currently in beta changes factories to make them more important, but even so, factories look like they're not very important until you're very deep into space. For now, I suggest building one just to see how worthless they are and then not bothering with them for a while. You're better off spending the titanum on mansions.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #201 on: October 14, 2015, 01:21:41 am »

"I have no idea what I'm going to do with all this titanium", as is my steel production

Space exploration will eat all the steel and titanium you can throw at it. Just to get started you'll need tens of thousands of each. You may even find that it's so expensive that you have to dial it back and do paragon runs for a while, in which case all your steel and titanium go to mansions.

Probably wise. Currently at 141 kittens; if I can get to 150, that's a tasty 80 extra paragon, which will get me to 204 total, and a quick run after that will hit 250. I don't have quite enough paragon that I can afford to kill all my aqueducts and pastures, I think.

(EDIT: But getting those extra nine kittens will take a good long while, so I'm just going to cut it off at the next mansion. I'll only need to get 123 kittens on the next run to make it to 250, which will be a total breeze.)

(EDIT 2: Aaaand got lazy and reset. 196 paragon, which is a perfectly respectable number. It'll be quicker to grind out eight extra kittens when they're kittens #122-#130 than if they're #142-#150.)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 01:34:29 am by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #202 on: October 14, 2015, 03:48:59 am »

196 paragon

Which that much, a short space trip would definitely be worthwhile. If you can build a moon base you can unlock Metaphysics, will which allow you to purchase permanent building cost reduction upgrades.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #203 on: October 17, 2015, 06:54:46 am »

Nearly have enough science capacity to grab Nuclear Fission, so it looks like I'll be able to send my first space mission by this evening. I'm also sitting pretty on 121 kittens; by my own calculation every kitten after #125 will provide paragon for metaphysics upgrades. I know I'll want to get the initial 1% price ratio drop, and probably Diplomacy; is there anything else I should shoot for?

(Additionally, how are price ratio reductions calculated? For example, for Huts, which have a vanilla ratio of 2.50, is the 1% reduction going to give me a new ratio of 2.50-0.25 = 2.475? Or is it considered as a 150% price increase every time you build one, which would give 150%-1% = 2.49?)
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #204 on: October 17, 2015, 07:31:30 pm »

Nearly have enough science capacity to grab Nuclear Fission, so it looks like I'll be able to send my first space mission by this evening.

Build enough oil wells to have 55,000 cap. You'll need it later, and if you're not prepared for it the steel requirements can potentially add a day or two.

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1% price ratio drop, and probably Diplomacy; is there anything else I should shoot for?

Cost reductions are awesome. Diplomacy is very helpful, as access to griffons on year 2 can completely eliminate the early game iron shortage. Don't rush to get Megalomania or unicorn stuff. It will be some time before you can make any use of them. Like, a long time. Chronomancy sounds good on paper and isn't terribly expensive, but I can't tell the difference for having it.

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how are price ratio reductions calculated? For example, for Huts

It's been over a month since I did the math, but the way I remember it working:

Cost multipliers are used to determine the cost of each additional building of any given type after the first. For each additional, you simply multiply the cost of the previous by the multiplier. Cost reductions are applied multipicatively to the modifier before it as applied to the cost

This means that all the cost reductions in the world won't reduce the cost of the first building you buy, the reductions will be very small for the first few, and they will quickly multiplicatively stack to become very significant. You've seen the way hut prices shrink when you buy hut upgrades. That's the sort of effect you'll see, but you won't notice it until you have a lot of buildings of any given type.

For example, hut price ratio, as you point out, is 2.5

Hut 1 costs 5 wood
Hut 2 costs 12.5
Hut 3 costs 31.25
...
Hut 10 costs ~19070

Metaphysics Engineering reduces the 2.5 multiplier by 1%, so 2.5 becomes 2.475

Hut 1 costs 5
Hut 2 costs 12.375
Hut 3 costs 30.628
...
Hut 10 costs ~17420

Additional cost reductions are also applied multiplicatively with each other and with workshop upgrades. This results in diminishing returns, but each additional metaphysics upgrade is bigger than the last, and the effects stack very nicely.

All metaphyiscs upgraes together results in a multiplier reduction of (.99 * .98382 * .983 * .98 * .9775) ~ .917. 2.5 * .917 = 2.2925

Hut 1 costs 5
Hut 2 costs 11.46
Hut 3 costs 26.27
...
Hut 10 costs ~8740


Hut 2 costs only about 8% less. Hut 10 costs 55% less.

This is significant not only for the actual cost reduction itself, but for the fact that it means you can build a lot more buildings before reaching your storage cap.





FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #205 on: October 18, 2015, 12:50:40 am »

Oh, wow. Yeah, that's definitely a big reduction...it'll be even more so for stuff like libraries and fields whose price ratios aren't so absurdly high.

I'm about to launch a moon mission here in a bit- I've got 23 oil wells, 9 tankers (hey, I had a lot of extra ships lying around), and am about 9k oil capacity away from the 55,000 goal. Should be able to reset today (I very stupidly bought a lot of alloy by accident earlier this morning, but ended up turning it into a few tankers).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 12:52:53 am by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

crazysheep

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #206 on: October 18, 2015, 02:58:07 am »

So the kerosene update just landed.

FINALLY, I don't have to spend a ton of minerals to get to Dune any more, I just need kerosene.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #207 on: October 18, 2015, 04:38:06 am »

Got Metaphysics, after about half an hour of grinding uranium. Grabbed the first price ratio decrease and...wow. If that's only the first price ratio discount...

Probably going to grab Golden Ratio and Diplomacy as well. Golden Ratio is going to smart a bit, since it's 50 paragon, but I'll be able to recoup some of that by buying extra housing before I reset, and if all else fails I can make another quick paragon run.

After I've gotten enough kittens (shooting for 150 this round- 80 paragon added to what after the Metaphysics purchases will be 136 is more than what I started with), I'll put a bunch of them on Priest and grind faith until I can get Apocrypha.

(EDIT: About to reset- I'll probably be able to pull about 160. I could probably do more, but I'm lazy, and getting that extra paragon will be a good deal faster next run- I'll do a quick paragon run and then reset to go deep into Metaphysics.)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 06:43:19 am by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #208 on: October 20, 2015, 04:24:45 pm »

Second space trip is in sight. 226 paragon, first two price ratio cuts. How do I get my uranium up to reasonable levels? I'm looking at the amounts of unobtanium needed later on for stuff like Leviathan trading or Eludium Huts, and it's mind-boggling given the measly little amounts you get out of lunar outposts.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Zangi

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #209 on: October 20, 2015, 04:43:41 pm »

All my whats.  Kerosene is a new thing.  I was gearing up steel to build a ton of tankers...  well, at least I didn't spend all my steel before noticing the new thing.

Year 3k, no resets yet, landed and established base on the moon recently.  I guess I'll hit 40k before resetting.
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