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Author Topic: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.  (Read 60378 times)

RulerOfNothing

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2015, 04:34:28 am »

You get additional karma (counts as a happiness increasing resource and adds 1% to happiness for every point of karma in addition to the 10% from being that kind of resource) if you have more than about 34 kittens when you reset (I'm not sure about the exact number as it has been a while since I played this game)
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LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2015, 06:37:12 am »

Starts you over with zero kittens and buildings, possibly with various permanent upgrades, depending on what you do.

There are like half a dozen different persistent currencies that do various things. Karma is the first one, awarded for kittens > 34 when you reset. It gives a small happiness boost. Paragon is the next you're likely to unlock.That starts at > 70 kittens, and gives both a production boost to kittens, a small production boost to automated facilities like smelters, plus a storage space boost, plus eventually you can use it to purchase various upgrades, most of which reduce your building costs. the next you'll probably unlock after that will be the faith bonus from apocrypha. That sacrifices accumulated faith in exchange for a persistent bonus to the rate of faith production.

Some other late-game stuff.

Krevsin

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2015, 07:00:25 am »

Ah, so I shouldn't restart until after I have 70 kittens at least, gotcha.
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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2015, 10:14:51 am »

Ah, so I shouldn't restart until after I have 70 kittens at least, gotcha.

Note that you get one paragon per kitten past 70, so one point there isn't worth a lot.  I reset at 85 and was happy with my result, though it depends on how fast it's going for you at that point; resetting allowed me to build smarter the next play through which helped more than the paragon, I think.

There's some good tips elsewhere in this thread.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2015, 08:09:41 pm »

How's your Workshop level?  At that stage of the game, you should be pushing to have many building capped, with Workshop being first on the list and Log Cabin not far behind.

It sounds like you've done what I did my first reset and pushed too hard on science and not hard enough on infrastructure; drop down to one scholar and build up everything else.  Coal's going to be slow for a while, but it shouldn't be capping you that hard if you're only at Steamworks.  (PS you don't need many Steamworks at all where you are; three should be plenty for a while for long AFK periods.)
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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Folly

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2015, 08:15:57 pm »

Wish this was on Steam or Android...I love my incremental idle games, but they feel kinda pointless without some background system keeping track of my progress and occasionally spitting out meaningless achievements.
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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2015, 08:16:54 pm »

This one does have meaningless achievements, at least; it just doesn't go for the "You have 1/10/100/1000/10000 Catnip!" style of them.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2015, 09:40:35 pm »

I'm at about 35 kittens, and CHRIST has the game slowed down. I can't advance that rapidly due to material constraints, primarily coal, which is restricted by material constraints, being minerals and wood.

What do you even need coal for that early? I assume steel, but that early you should barely be spending any steel. Get the low hanging fruit of upgrades: steel axe and armor, reinforced warehouses, etc. Then pretty much stop spending steel until you're ready to buy mansions. Steel shouldn't be a bottleneck except for a very brief period, and not for a while.

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in the grim dark of the year 154, there is no advancement. Only endless attempts to get at the religion technology and make Steamworks useful.

Don't go out of your way for either of those. Build them if and when they're convenient. It's not realistic to do very much with them on your first run.

Also, if your steamworks in powered on, that's why you lack coal. Turn it off. An unupgraded steamworks penalizes coal production by 80%, and at your stage of the game, unless you're overnight afking it's probably not benefitting you at all to keep it on.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 09:52:29 pm by LordBucket »
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Baffler

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2015, 09:50:38 pm »

Is resetting even worth it? I've spent a long time getting myself up to the 20 kittens I have, and I'm not going to hit 34 quickly either. If I'm gonna start again from nothing, it's gonna have to be a hell of a buff.
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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2015, 10:03:08 pm »

Very much so, but (IMO) only once you've got some paragon.  This is not a quick reset game, but you will be resetting multiple times.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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h3lblad3

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2015, 10:38:12 pm »

Resetting gives you a boost to happiness. I think it's a 10% the just for having some karma and then 1% for every point you have. Once you get up to paragon points, they up your productivity and storage space.
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LordBucket

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2015, 11:11:51 pm »

Is resetting even worth it?

Yes, it's pretty much essential to get past the middle game.

The more kittens you have, the more your happiness drops. The more your happiness drops, the less your kittens do. Ampihtheatres reduce that penalty, but just making up numbers to give an example, let's say you have 40 kittens and 60% happiness. Your 40 kittens are doing the work of (40 * .6) = 24 kittens. If you then add one more kitten, that's +1 kitten and -2% happiness. So that means your 41 kittens are doing the work of (41 * .58) = 23.78 kittens.

That means that in this example, you actually get less production from more kittens. That's not always the case. Realistically you'll probably have much less of a penalty at 40 kittens than I've shown here. I've chosen numbers specifically to demonstrate the effect. But there are generally diminishing returns for more kittens up to that point that they start penalizing you.

Karma overcomes that, both by reducing the raw penalty, as well as by moving upwards the point at which having more kittens is bad.

For example, if you had enough karma to give a 40% happiness boost, so that you had 100% happiness at 40 kittens, your 40 kittens would be doing the work of 40 kittens. And when you add one, your 41 kittens would be doing the work of (41 * .98) = 40.18 kittens. You've turned a -.21 penalty into a +.18 bonus. Every kitten up to that point is doing more work than they were before, and even at this point you're still gaining from adding more kittens.

Realistically, you're probably only going to have a 10-18% or so bonus from karma after a first reset. But even if you reset at a very low number, say...50 kittens, that's worth roughly a 12% bonus on your next run.

So, first penalty happens at 5 kittens, assuming no ampitheatres, right now your 20 kittens are doing the work of...(2% * (20 - 5)) = 70% happiness. 70% happiness * 20 kittens = 14 kittens worth of work. (Real result will be higher because you probably do have ampitheatres.

With a 12% happiness bonus, it would be 82% * 20 kittens = 16.4 kittens worth of work.

So roughly a 17% production bonus compared to where you are now.

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it's gonna have to be a hell of a buff.

Well, how much is "big" depends on a lot of factors. A 10% adjustment to a 10% penalty is different from a 10% adjustment to a 10% bonus.

.9 * .9 = .81

1.1 * 1.1 = 1.21

.19 change vs .21 change.

Additionally, a lot of these things have diminishing returns. 100 karma is not twice as valuable as 50 karma. So the precise numerical value of reset bonuses is difficult to give.

But loosely speaking, if you can reset with ~60 kittens, that will be worth roughly a 13% production bonus to the work your kittens do. And if you can get to 81, that's worth roughly a 16% production bonus to your kittens from karma, as well as 10 points of paragon, which will give you:

 * 10% kitten production bonus ( I think this is muliplicitive with the karma bonus, but I haven't confirmed that)
 * +1% storage capacity to all your buildings
 * +2.5% building production bonus (smelters, calciners, etc.)

The first reset recommendation given here should be worth 90-100 kittens in under a week. Between karma and paragon, that's worth roughly  40-50% kitten production bonus in addition to storage and building production bonuses.

Don't underestimate the storage capacity bonuses. Each additional building costs more than the previous, and even very modest storage bonuses can save you from having to build one more storage building, which is more expensive than any of the previous storage buildings, in order to have room to buy one more of some other type of building, which is also more expensive than any of its previous buildings. This is especially apparent with research buildings when your science is always capped with nothing to spend it on and you need to start needing to build more warehouses to be able to have the storage capacity to build more research buildings to increase your science capacity.

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I've spent a long time getting myself up to the 20 kittens I have, and I'm not going to hit 34 quickly either.

It's probable that you're doing something silly. My first run was twice as long as it needed to be for much less gain than I could have had. Just because you can upgrade something doesn't mean it will benefit you right away. If you're buying things and investing in research based on what arbitrarily sounds good, or assuming that because it showed you this thing next, that should be the next thing you do...you're probably wasting a lot of resources.

The steamworks is a good example of this. You gain access to it fairly early, and it's useful later, but if you get one as soon as you can and turn it on, it does nothing for you except burn up your coal. It can actually slow you down if you build an early steamworks. At 20 kittens, I'm guessing that's probably not your situation, but it's possible you've stumbled on other pitfalls.

If you post a screenshot of your bonfire/science/workshop screens, I can probably offer more specific advice.




« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 11:21:31 pm by LordBucket »
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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2015, 08:19:19 am »

* 10% kitten production bonus ( I think this is muliplicitive with the karma bonus, but I haven't confirmed that)

Happiness modifies the base value reported to the income screen (Village: +1.000 when hovering over income) in a way with skill that I'm not sure of.  However, Paragon is indeed multiplied from that value, so yes.  And then Faith is multiplicative on top of that. And then Magnetos are multiplicative on top of that.

It starts stacking up fast.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2015, 11:00:20 am »

They're from Architecture.

At your point, you're in great shape if workshop, barn, hut, catnip, pasture, mine, workshop, smelter, maybe library and aqueduct, ideally lumber mill, and workshop are storage locked. 
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

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Re: Kittens! An incremental game of steam and science.
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2015, 11:55:10 am »

Mansions are great- eventually.  Right out the gate they cost a lot of steel and titanium which will be in short supply for a good while.

Absolutely get a couple steamworks built and leave them running; you just don't need to be in a hurry to run down the tech tree at this stage.  The workshop is really the big one; I've kept it pretty much capped constantly and never regretted it.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.
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