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[Enchiridion]

And when I say magic what I really mean is MAGIC!


So as it stands historical and in-game figures do things that are mostly selfish. There are no actual cases of friendship and love having any actual impact on the game other than a few Dwarves getting depressed and killing themselves. What a non-dwarfy way to go, isnt it?


It doesn't seem right. Dwarf behaveour should be impacted by the people they hold dear and what happens to them. When a loved one is killed by goblins or elves, the dwarf should develop a hate for, if not the one who killed the loved one, then perhaps even the whole race, and in the case of a few scenarios, perhaps the whole world. Likewise, the threat of being killed should motivate Dwarves(and other entities) to do acts of selflessness and self-sacrifice.


This can be expressed in many ways. I have a list here:

• When a loved one or friend is attacked, the dwarf will try to overcome fear and fight the attacker. The dwarf may become frenzied.
• When a loved one or friend is killed, a dwarf may swear vengeance on those who killed it.
• When a loved one or friend is killed, a dwarf may change his aspirations and dreams to prevent such future occurrences(The text may read as "He now dreams of slaying goblins" or "He wishes to one day have vengeance")
• When a loved one or friend is injured, the dwarf may wish to spend time in their presence and not leave them as they recover.
• When a dwarf goes into severe depression or "mood-death" and is vengeful he may instead choose to go into "self-exile" and take stuff with him and go out into the world to get vengeance. What happens afterwards is up to them.
• When a loved one or friend is missing, a dwarf may go out around the map "searching" for them.
• When a loved one or friend is buried, a dwarf may go and visit their grave ever so often.
• When a loved one or friend dies of injuries or desease, a dwarf may decide to become a profession associated with preventing such things(doctors, soapmakers, clothesmakers, armorsmiths etc)

Those are just some examples of reactions to tragedy, but what about proactive things, such as the love for a city, or a place, or even an individual or a profession or item? Well I have a few examples but a lot of them require concepts and mechanics that are not currently in the game:

• There is the obvious "Wishes to join the military and protect X" emotion.
• Once some form of sorcery is added, there should be historical accounts of self-sacrifice spells where a sorcerer or necromancer creates a powerful effect on an area that requires his own death. These effects could be enchantments or the creation of creatures that embody something they have an adoration for, or perhaps even the complete resurrection of someone dead... or a Narnia-esque global kill-spell.
• Bands a people with a "motive" or "ideal" could be formed(either by necessity or by passion or any other means). These bands could be either outlaws in certain civs or perhaps respected institutions in other civs or perhaps religious movements or just travelers. This heavily overlaps with guilds and the like, but the idea is that they are formed by intent and emotion more so. Think robin hood and his gang, stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Some possible concepts they would form around:
• • Heal the X
  • Defend X
  • Defend X from Y
  • Defend X in Y
  • Hunt X
  • Hunt X in Y
  • Acquire X
  • Purge X of Y
  • Slay X
  • Provide X to Y
  • Restrict the use of X(Think elves and the cutting of wood)
  • Free X from Y
  • Destroy X(perhaps magical items or artifacts or even sites)
  • Keep X secret(perhaps magical items or sites or spells or something)
  • Guard X.
• As a result of some events, some people with the right personality could aspire to one day join some of the previously mentioned groups(provided they know about them) instead of the usual "dreams to master a skill".
• A legendary master of a craft may become so absorbed by it that he decides to only do that craft in hopes of one day becoming a true legend of it.
• A dying master of a skill decides to use his last moments in this life to create a truly great artifact infused with his very soul. Such acts should usually kill the dwarf and would count as "Deathly" or "Dire" mood or something.
• A person may have the desire to "One day see X with his own eyes" or "Settle down in X" or "See the depths of X" or (you get the idea) as a sort of buffer desire before getting a different one.
• And last but not least a person may intersect an arrow or jump in the way of an attack or projectile to try and save someone. Just cus.

The list goes on and on and on and you get the idea.


Now heres where it gets tricky, how would one determine that a dwarf becomes obsessed over something? The original idea was prolonged exposure, but that seems completely unrealistic and making it gamey in the sense that "oops the random number generator rolled a 100 and now the dwarf is addicted to that bucket" also seems rather bad. What his all boils down to is the idea that people should have a driving force and should be willing to do many things for it. Imagine perhaps a party running from something or someone and one of them says to the others "You go ahead, I shall stay behind and buy you some time! Run!" and gives his life for something. Or perhaps when dwarves are evacuating to some area from a fb, someone might want to "be the hero" and face the FB one on one.


Either way, I will update this later with more ideas on how to achieve more satisfying obsession and "love" for something or someone in game. I did a scientific study during school on the idea of forming emergent social ties and groups between AI and I think that might factor into this quite well.

[crazyabe]

Urist mc insane butcher has exiled himself hunting wife`s murder.

[Evil One]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

[Dirst]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, what's wrong with making DF more like the real world?

[Enchiridion]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, what's wrong with making DF more like the real world?

Heh nice. I dont think it would be a tantrum spiral, because not EVERYONE would have these reactions, im just saying that they should sometimes happen.

[Chevaleresse]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, WWI?

[Bumber]

The beard that launch'd a thousand ships wagons.

[Heretic]

I think its genial, trully geneal!!!!! it's looklike the way to give motivation to historical persons, to create self-organization etc.etc.it can make history unbeliveble realistic! In fact this idea lok like true-dwarf thing and I belive that Toady planned somethinj like this... but I think, that if a lot of people's vote, this time will became faster.

[Evil One]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, what's wrong with making DF more like the real world?

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, WWI?

Not exactly, instead of country verses country this is going to be a lot of individuals verses each other.

Dwarf A is murdered by a Human A
Dwarf B friend of Dwarf A swears vengeance and murders Human A
Human B wife of Human A dreams of killing dwarves and goes on a massacre killing Dwarf B, C and D
Friends of Dwarves B, C and D go into exile, dream of killing humans and swear vengence.

Now this is just a small sample of what could (and knowing DF probably would) happen, essentially in world-gen any time there was a battle/war or even just a bar-room brawl you could end up with one or more civilizations being wiped out in a massive tantrum spiral.

[Enchiridion]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, what's wrong with making DF more like the real world?

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, WWI?

Not exactly, instead of country verses country this is going to be a lot of individuals verses each other.

Dwarf A is murdered by a Human A
Dwarf B friend of Dwarf A swears vengeance and murders Human A
Human B wife of Human A dreams of killing dwarves and goes on a massacre killing Dwarf B, C and D
Friends of Dwarves B, C and D go into exile, dream of killing humans and swear vengence.

Now this is just a small sample of what could (and knowing DF probably would) happen, essentially in world-gen any time there was a battle/war or even just a bar-room brawl you could end up with one or more civilizations being wiped out in a massive tantrum spiral.

More like Goblin A Kills dwarf B, The spouse or close friend of Dwarf B, Dwarf C, is taken by deep anger and vows to have revenge on Goblin A and his kind, A billion other dwarfs who's friends or relatives were hurt and or who are empathic to his cause join him and a war breaks out.

[Evil One]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, what's wrong with making DF more like the real world?

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, WWI?

Not exactly, instead of country verses country this is going to be a lot of individuals verses each other.

Dwarf A is murdered by a Human A
Dwarf B friend of Dwarf A swears vengeance and murders Human A
Human B wife of Human A dreams of killing dwarves and goes on a massacre killing Dwarf B, C and D
Friends of Dwarves B, C and D go into exile, dream of killing humans and swear vengence.

Now this is just a small sample of what could (and knowing DF probably would) happen, essentially in world-gen any time there was a battle/war or even just a bar-room brawl you could end up with one or more civilizations being wiped out in a massive tantrum spiral.

More like Goblin A Kills dwarf B, The spouse or close friend of Dwarf B, Dwarf C, is taken by deep anger and vows to have revenge on Goblin A and his kind, A billion other dwarfs who's friends or relatives were hurt and or who are empathic to his cause join him and a war breaks out.

The thing is, as Goblin and other sites can hold people of other races, it could end up with multiple towns, individuals or civilizations being drawn in, then as the people in those are killed or maimed, it'll draw even more in.

World ending tantrum spirals become a distinct possibility, plus this'd create some serious necromancer problems.

[Enchiridion]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, what's wrong with making DF more like the real world?

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, WWI?

Not exactly, instead of country verses country this is going to be a lot of individuals verses each other.

Dwarf A is murdered by a Human A
Dwarf B friend of Dwarf A swears vengeance and murders Human A
Human B wife of Human A dreams of killing dwarves and goes on a massacre killing Dwarf B, C and D
Friends of Dwarves B, C and D go into exile, dream of killing humans and swear vengence.

Now this is just a small sample of what could (and knowing DF probably would) happen, essentially in world-gen any time there was a battle/war or even just a bar-room brawl you could end up with one or more civilizations being wiped out in a massive tantrum spiral.

More like Goblin A Kills dwarf B, The spouse or close friend of Dwarf B, Dwarf C, is taken by deep anger and vows to have revenge on Goblin A and his kind, A billion other dwarfs who's friends or relatives were hurt and or who are empathic to his cause join him and a war breaks out.

The thing is, as Goblin and other sites can hold people of other races, it could end up with multiple towns, individuals or civilizations being drawn in, then as the people in those are killed or maimed, it'll draw even more in.

World ending tantrum spirals become a distinct possibility, plus this'd create some series necromancer problems.

And thus the period in DF history began... known as the age of strife...

[Evil One]

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, what's wrong with making DF more like the real world?

I dunno, I get the feeling that something like this would yield world-gen tantrum spirals that could decimate multiple civilizations.

So, WWI?

Not exactly, instead of country verses country this is going to be a lot of individuals verses each other.

Dwarf A is murdered by a Human A
Dwarf B friend of Dwarf A swears vengeance and murders Human A
Human B wife of Human A dreams of killing dwarves and goes on a massacre killing Dwarf B, C and D
Friends of Dwarves B, C and D go into exile, dream of killing humans and swear vengence.

Now this is just a small sample of what could (and knowing DF probably would) happen, essentially in world-gen any time there was a battle/war or even just a bar-room brawl you could end up with one or more civilizations being wiped out in a massive tantrum spiral.

More like Goblin A Kills dwarf B, The spouse or close friend of Dwarf B, Dwarf C, is taken by deep anger and vows to have revenge on Goblin A and his kind, A billion other dwarfs who's friends or relatives were hurt and or who are empathic to his cause join him and a war breaks out.

The thing is, as Goblin and other sites can hold people of other races, it could end up with multiple towns, individuals or civilizations being drawn in, then as the people in those are killed or maimed, it'll draw even more in.

World ending tantrum spirals become a distinct possibility, plus this'd create some series necromancer problems.

And thus the period in DF history began... known as the age of strife...

While wandering across a world where everyone and everything has been decimated in one almighty tantrum spiral would be interesting, it would be a little annoying if playing fortress or adventure modes in that your adventurer would only be able to start as an outsider and in fortress mode there'd be no-one left to attack.

Virtually all tantrum spirals in Dwarf Fortress would be fortress ending but for the intervention of the player (the only exceptions being where a fortress has been divided into sections) so perhaps something like this could be implemented after Toady has found some way to let people calm down.

[AceSV]

That all assumes that the AI dwarves have the capacity to generalize hatred against a particular goblin into hatred against all goblins.  If a vengeful dwarf only takes revenge on a particular goblin and not all goblins, you have the framework for a feud instead of a massacre.  Also, would the feeling of vengeance actually be strong enough to make a dwarf leave his home and go looking for the perpetrator?  Even if he does go on his quest, would he ever find the goblin?  The dwarf might starve along the way or get eaten by yetis and boogeymen, or even get killed by the goblin he's trying to take revenge on.  There are a lot of ways in which the situation would not get out of hand. 

But as pointed out, if the dwarf who wants revenge is a military commander, local ruler or bandit leader, he might have enough resources at his disposal to actually go to war for the sake of revenge.  But there you have a realistic history. 



Also, this system could be used for more than just military matters.  A dwarf could get jealous of an artifact and try to steal it or make one of his own.  A dwarf might make crafts or artifacts based on his lover's likes and interests instead of his own.  A friendly rivalry or loving patron might motivate a dwarf to work harder and be better at his job, while the loss of a loved one or bullying could make the dwarf depressed and less motivated. 

[Evil One]

That all assumes that the AI dwarves have the capacity to generalize hatred against a particular goblin into hatred against all goblins.  If a vengeful dwarf only takes revenge on a particular goblin and not all goblins, you have the framework for a feud instead of a massacre.

The only problem of course is if the Dwarf kills that Goblin, the friends of that goblin will become vengeful against the Dwarf and kill him and his friends will become vengeful in turn.

Also, would the feeling of vengeance actually be strong enough to make a dwarf leave his home and go looking for the perpetrator?  Even if he does go on his quest, would he ever find the goblin?  The dwarf might starve along the way or get eaten by yetis and boogeymen, or even get killed by the goblin he's trying to take revenge on.  There are a lot of ways in which the situation would not get out of hand. 

True, there are a number of things which could prevent the tantrum, but that'd only work if the two enemies are far enough apart, if their towns/civilizations are close together it could cause all kinds of problems.

But as pointed out, if the dwarf who wants revenge is a military commander, local ruler or bandit leader, he might have enough resources at his disposal to actually go to war for the sake of revenge.  But there you have a realistic history. 

Well, that wouldn't be so bad, it's the whole friends, family, ETC getting dragged in with each victim which holds the greatest potential for problems.

Also, this system could be used for more than just military matters.  A dwarf could get jealous of an artifact and try to steal it or make one of his own.  A dwarf might make crafts or artifacts based on his lover's likes and interests instead of his own.  A friendly rivalry or loving patron might motivate a dwarf to work harder and be better at his job, while the loss of a loved one or bullying could make the dwarf depressed and less motivated.

That would be interesting to see I'll admit.

Perhaps if Toady could add in a way for sentients with certain personality types to console vengeful, depressed or just plain angry friends, family, ETC... That might be enough to blunt the effects of tantrum spirals.