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[CancerousCthulhu]

So, my militia captain of three years who has never seen live combat and has been only sparring and training for that whole time 1v1'd a giant, and the giant never got a hit off. Why is training so terribly effective?

[Halnoth]

Training is ok and all, but I don't think it is OP.

Giants are just stupidly easy. They don't have weapons or armor. You basically sent your trained soldier against an unarmed civilian. Albiet a very big civilian.

Try those same troops against the undead then we can have a conversation.

[Tawa]

As the Teaching skill rises and the Student skills rise, the amounts of learning increase exponentially. Hence the reason I once got a macedwarf from Proficient to Legendary in a couple months.

[ldog]

It's inline with everything else in the game. Employ a dwarf at any task constantly for a couple years and they will go from 0 to legendary.

[Robsoie]

The problem with training is that in a couple of years, most of your military will be legendary, but the goblin sieges you're going to face (if you're lucky enough to have them coming, as it can be 5/6 years before a small goblin party can come, and sometime they just never come) are low skilled goblins.

So basically there's less and less challenge because the goblins do not get better with their own training.
I had made a test to see if i could get more siege with huge litter size for the goblins, and i managed to get 3 sieges in 10 long and boring years of a fort life.
At the 1st siege my dwarves were very skilled, not yet legendary, and destroyed easily the small party that came
At the 2nd siege, more goblins and trolls came but they were as mediocre as they were, and my dwarves were legendary in their melee skill, it was a one sided carnage
Last siege, +/- the same amount of gobs , but still badly skilled, another one sided carnage.

In DF2014 There's a heavy unbalance in how training works for you and how it does not work for gobs, in 34.11 not only i had much more sieges and ambushes but i had lots of gobs weaponmasters that could put a very serious challenge to my troops (especially as normal training was much slower in getting your dwarves to legendary).

And that without mentionning how broken the df2014 siege system is with gobs at war with your civ ignoring most of the time your fort even if it's built right next their dark fortress, so you may not even see any in your whole fort life.

Hopefully Toady will give a closer look to these problems in his next version.

[Niddhoger]

I've also seen a lone axelord bitch slap an FB into last week (standard FB made of flesh, but did have a toxic breath/stinger iirc).  I thought he would be a goner, since the rest of his squad was lagging behind him.  The thing is, DF lacks any form of a hit point system.  Its all about damage to specific body parts, with the ability to one-hit-kill if you strike the right area with enough force.  So if a lung is pierced, the target likely crumples to the ground in pain/shock/difficulty breathing before the coup de grace comes.  However, if that same attack had pierced its heart.... instant kill.  Same with crushing the brain.  He also could have lopped off the giant's leg in one swipe, caused the giant to collapse due to instability, pain, and/or blood loss. Then your dorf went for his head/heart while the giant was prone.  Legendary swordsmen/axelords tend to lop off limbs like they are going out of style. 

The combat logs... can be very brutal. 

[CancerousCthulhu]

Yeah, my axelord cut off the giant's lower lip and made him fall unconscious. Three head chops later and the giant was nothing but a month-long hauling task for some unlucky dwarf.

[Niddhoger]

Yup... this is another reason why thralls/zombies are so dangerous.  They don't die from organ failure and they don't collapse from pain.  Several battles are decided when one combatant is overwhelmed by the pain of an injury.  They'll either pass out, stagger, or start vomitting mid battle.  This can even happen from a broken toe (how composed were you upon just stubbing your toe at night!?).

[CancerousCthulhu]

Well, then. Bad juju was apparently summoned to put me in my place. I hadn't spec'ed my military to deal with undead (7 dwarfs, only one hammer dwarf who wasn't fully trained yet), so naturally necromancers siege my fortress in the fourth year without there being a tower as one of my neighbors. 37 undead just ravaged my military and then my fort, as I forgot to link a lever a while back. gg no re

[SyrusLD]

He also could have lopped off the giant's leg in one swipe, caused the giant to collapse due to instability, pain, and/or blood loss. Then your dorf went for his head/heart while the giant was prone.  Legendary swordsmen/axelords tend to lop off limbs like they are going out of style.

Ironically a lost limb appears to be less painful than a broken bone, so for creatures feeling pain (and having bones), it might always be an idea to throw some hammer or macedwarf at it, hoping for some smashed bones, the enemy instantly passing out from pain and having its head reshaped.

Training seems to go quite quickly as well actually. I mean, ... I "hate" losing dwarves, but not having them get ANY injuries in any fight at all is also a bit boring. It feels like training should only get them so far; like limiting training to get them only up to "Accomplished" and everything beyond that either only increases very slowly (unless you already got a legendary trainer, then it'd be a bit faster) or the dwarf couldn't even advance past that without proper combat, though I prefer a very slow increase.
Of course, the enemies are also part of the problem...I had one siege consisting almost entirely of goblin recruits, half of them ran away after most of the other half's body parts littered my "siege-entrance"...just doesn't seem like much of a challenge when you got 10 legendary dwarves vs. 80 recruits and half a dozen normal goblins.

Sadly (?!) I got no tower near Violentlash, so my beyond-legendary meat-grinder military can only enjoy slaughtering goblins and the rare other guests, and once I finally manage to get the elves attack, them too.

[Niddhoger]

Well, then. Bad juju was apparently summoned to put me in my place. I hadn't spec'ed my military to deal with undead (7 dwarfs, only one hammer dwarf who wasn't fully trained yet), so naturally necromancers siege my fortress in the fourth year without there being a tower as one of my neighbors. 37 undead just ravaged my military and then my fort, as I forgot to link a lever a while back. gg no re

Well... zombies also get tripled physical stats.  Most zombies lack armor (armor/equipment/held items all fall off a parson when they die), so its not too bad.  However... tower zombies have triple physical stats, armor, and immunity to pain/organ failure.  On top of that, they have necromancers behind them that will reanimate severed limbs (and fallen dorfs).  You -really- shouldn't use edged weapons (or spears) against tower sieges.  Axelords can do alright... if they don't get swarmed AND you separate the necromancers from the main force. 


Also, hammers aren't that great against undead.  They are like the bastard child between a spear and a mace in DF: they are blunt (breaks bones and more effective with weight... silver hammers> steel ones/platinum artifact hammer > fucking everything), but all of that weight is concentrated into a small surface area (tiny hammer head).  Thus, hammers penetrate the crap out of armor and often lead to one-hit-kills on hte first round when they smash helmets through people's skulls.  They rely far more on the organ damage than pulping to incapacitate foes.  This is why you use maces against reanimation.  The mace keeps the zombie intact, but also breaks all their bones and pulps all their muscles.  The zombie is rendered unable to move/finally dies.  Think of smashing them into (rotten) jam. 

Also, a squad of macemen alone is the worst weapon to field a full squad of.  They are underpowered in that mace hits should liquify internal organs and shatter bones, quickly killing someone.  However, they usually just bruise up skin/organs/muscles.  After the target passes out from pain, the maceman then spends far too long pulvering the victim before they finally die.  During this time... he isn't attacking anyone else.  Swords, spears, axes, hammers all kill quicker and are thus preferred (for living targets).  A special note on spears- very large enemies (megabeasts, titans, colossi, FBs) have skin/fat/muscles too thick for other weapons to pierce and reach the organs.  Spears, on the other hand, are long enough to pierce through all of a hydra's flesh and reach its heart.  Otherwise, your swords/axemen will be decimated trying to lop off all of its 12 heads+arms/legs while your mace/hammerdorfs waste time bruising so much superficial tissue.  In general, the weapons all have their different places in your arsenal.  Axes are the best at dismememberment, hammers work best against armored opponents, spears kill large beasts the best and are great for organ damage in general, maces are great to incapacitate for other soldiers/best for undead, and swords are a great all around weapon (personally I never use them though.  Axes are more dorfy and dismember better, and hammers are better against sieges/equipped enemies).

Although... traps are probably your best defense.  Not simply cage traps, but hte ones you have to engineer yourself.  Drowning chambers are excellent mass-slaughter devices.  Also, if you are dealing with amphibious/aquatic/undead invaders you can try to engineer a freezing chamber.  I'm not sure if anything other than demons can survive being frozen.  An obsidian-chamber is always available as well, but will destroy all the non iron/steel equipment and clothing (which could be a blessing, as it also destroys the bodies).  You can fling/drop socks on invaders, drop them 20+ z-levels, create a ballista corridor ~150-200 tiles long that shreds attackers.  You can set up a looping track of lead-filled minecarts... or you can just create a series of airlocks to break up enemy forces to ensure your militia is never out-numbered (I did this to fight the circus)

[a troglodyte]

The problem with training is that in a couple of years, most of your military will be legendary, but the goblin sieges you're going to face (if you're lucky enough to have them coming, as it can be 5/6 years before a small goblin party can come, and sometime they just never come) are low skilled goblins.

So basically there's less and less challenge because the goblins do not get better with their own training.
I had made a test to see if i could get more siege with huge litter size for the goblins, and i managed to get 3 sieges in 10 long and boring years of a fort life.
At the 1st siege my dwarves were very skilled, not yet legendary, and destroyed easily the small party that came
At the 2nd siege, more goblins and trolls came but they were as mediocre as they were, and my dwarves were legendary in their melee skill, it was a one sided carnage
Last siege, +/- the same amount of gobs , but still badly skilled, another one sided carnage.

In DF2014 There's a heavy unbalance in how training works for you and how it does not work for gobs, in 34.11 not only i had much more sieges and ambushes but i had lots of gobs weaponmasters that could put a very serious challenge to my troops (especially as normal training was much slower in getting your dwarves to legendary).

And that without mentionning how broken the df2014 siege system is with gobs at war with your civ ignoring most of the time your fort even if it's built right next their dark fortress, so you may not even see any in your whole fort life.

Hopefully Toady will give a closer look to these problems in his next version.

The skill thing isn't just a problem for goblin combat skills, but historical figures and skills as a whole. When I embark from a large civ with lots of living dwarven historical figures, I receive wave upon wave of "farmers", "rangers", and "fishermen" -- none of whom are more than novice level in any skill. Any amount of experience gained in-fortress gives you very exceptional dwarves, by the standard of the rest of the world. This just seems super lame to me; building an exceptional settlement full of exceptional individuals is now automatic instead of something you have to work for. And the experience levels of historical figures don't even make sense. If this guy is 70+ years old, am I supposed to believe he's done nothing in his life besides make 3 units of cheese?

I can see the appeal of having historical figures carried straight from world gen into game, but the numbers are way off target and the game is much weaker for it.

[CancerousCthulhu]

Well, then. Bad juju was apparently summoned to put me in my place. I hadn't spec'ed my military to deal with undead (7 dwarfs, only one hammer dwarf who wasn't fully trained yet), so naturally necromancers siege my fortress in the fourth year without there being a tower as one of my neighbors. 37 undead just ravaged my military and then my fort, as I forgot to link a lever a while back. gg no re

Well... zombies also get tripled physical stats.  Most zombies lack armor (armor/equipment/held items all fall off a parson when they die), so its not too bad.  However... tower zombies have triple physical stats, armor, and immunity to pain/organ failure.  On top of that, they have necromancers behind them that will reanimate severed limbs (and fallen dorfs).  You -really- shouldn't use edged weapons (or spears) against tower sieges.  Axelords can do alright... if they don't get swarmed AND you separate the necromancers from the main force. 


Also, hammers aren't that great against undead.  They are like the bastard child between a spear and a mace in DF: they are blunt (breaks bones and more effective with weight... silver hammers> steel ones/platinum artifact hammer > fucking everything), but all of that weight is concentrated into a small surface area (tiny hammer head).  Thus, hammers penetrate the crap out of armor and often lead to one-hit-kills on hte first round when they smash helmets through people's skulls.  They rely far more on the organ damage than pulping to incapacitate foes.  This is why you use maces against reanimation.  The mace keeps the zombie intact, but also breaks all their bones and pulps all their muscles.  The zombie is rendered unable to move/finally dies.  Think of smashing them into (rotten) jam. 

Also, a squad of macemen alone is the worst weapon to field a full squad of.  They are underpowered in that mace hits should liquify internal organs and shatter bones, quickly killing someone.  However, they usually just bruise up skin/organs/muscles.  After the target passes out from pain, the maceman then spends far too long pulvering the victim before they finally die.  During this time... he isn't attacking anyone else.  Swords, spears, axes, hammers all kill quicker and are thus preferred (for living targets).  A special note on spears- very large enemies (megabeasts, titans, colossi, FBs) have skin/fat/muscles too thick for other weapons to pierce and reach the organs.  Spears, on the other hand, are long enough to pierce through all of a hydra's flesh and reach its heart.  Otherwise, your swords/axemen will be decimated trying to lop off all of its 12 heads+arms/legs while your mace/hammerdorfs waste time bruising so much superficial tissue.  In general, the weapons all have their different places in your arsenal.  Axes are the best at dismememberment, hammers work best against armored opponents, spears kill large beasts the best and are great for organ damage in general, maces are great to incapacitate for other soldiers/best for undead, and swords are a great all around weapon (personally I never use them though.  Axes are more dorfy and dismember better, and hammers are better against sieges/equipped enemies).

Although... traps are probably your best defense.  Not simply cage traps, but hte ones you have to engineer yourself.  Drowning chambers are excellent mass-slaughter devices.  Also, if you are dealing with amphibious/aquatic/undead invaders you can try to engineer a freezing chamber.  I'm not sure if anything other than demons can survive being frozen.  An obsidian-chamber is always available as well, but will destroy all the non iron/steel equipment and clothing (which could be a blessing, as it also destroys the bodies).  You can fling/drop socks on invaders, drop them 20+ z-levels, create a ballista corridor ~150-200 tiles long that shreds attackers.  You can set up a looping track of lead-filled minecarts... or you can just create a series of airlocks to break up enemy forces to ensure your militia is never out-numbered (I did this to fight the circus)

Yeah, I was being terribly lazy with this fort and decided to go for infrastructure over defenses, due to the fact that, for four years, I've had no conflict with any of the surrounding civilizations, nor was there a tower as my neighbor when the fort began. I'm pretty sure that the five necromancers that migrated through my embark location actually set up a tower to my west while my fort was running, because the siege came with 3 necromancers and a very well equipped horde of undead. ie. Nothing less than fully iron clad elf corpses (And elves already have better average stats than humans or dwarfs, just saying). My two legendaries put up a good fight, until dodging into a murky pool and drowning themselves.

[Niddhoger]

Defense should always be priority #1.  Even if you lack hostile neighbours, you really don't.  Megabeasts, Titans, and FBs will still strike.  If nothing else you need to be able to turtle and buy time for emergency preparations.  The last thing you want is to spend a whole weekend on a fort, only to get wiped out because you failed to set up defenses in the first couple of years.  One small squad won't cut it as "defense" either (a syndrome breathing and/or steel armored FB could have done them in easily).   However, if you really want to rely on a militia (I always prefer intricate traps), you can build a series of "airlocks" out of raising bridges.  These would serve to break up an enemy force, and only allows a handful to engage your dorfs at a time/give your dorfs time to take a break and recover stanima/cart off casualties. 

[Spehss _]

I don't see a problem with the situation someone described earlier with 10 legendary dwarves versus 80 or so low leveled goblins. It's fun to watch your military tear through hordes of mooks and gain long kill counts and fancy titles.

If you want to, you could challenge yourself. Make your military only use leather and bone armor. Or don't use shields. Or have them only use shields.