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Author Topic: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!  (Read 16869 times)

mainiac

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #105 on: August 12, 2015, 11:06:34 pm »

I take the pragmatic view, I'd gladly trade the life of a German civilian during WWII for a Soviet civilian during WWII.  A longer war would cost many Soviet lives, not to mention German lives in the death camps.  I dont know what the morality is.  All I know is that it seems to make sense.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #106 on: August 12, 2015, 11:36:11 pm »


Here's where you're wrong. Terror bombing was almost entirely a myth - not a single bomb was dropped by an Allied bomber (and few if any from an Axis one) with the intention of causing victory through panic. Every single one was aimed at a factory, a military target, or a transportation network. Dresden was not only one of the key remaining industrial centers, it was THE supply and transit nexus for the forces defending the Soviet invasion route, and it was obliterated in an attempt to "plow the road" for the Soviets. The reason Japan's cities were firebombed (instead of the precision-for-the-era raids the US tried so hard to pull off in Europe) was because every Japanese home contained some sort of machine tool, and such decentralized production made up the majority of the Japanese industry. Similarly, Britain resorted to area firebombing not out of any attempt to break the enemy morale (nobody who lived through the Blitz would be stupid enough to think that would work) but because hitting a city block at night was pushing the accuracy of the time, and RAF Bomber Command just couldn't take the losses that unescorted (until the later models of American fighters got into service, fighters simply couldn't fly far enough) bombers would suffer by daylight. The ONLY goal was still to break the back of the industry, in this case by destroying or driving away the workforce.


EDIT: Nagasaki was one of Japan's biggest industrial centers, and Hiroshima was a major military base. Both were vital military targets.

I'm really surprised you'd make that claim, since everything I've ever read on the subject contradicts it. The idea of damaging civilian morale to the point of capitulation was central to nearly every air power advocate's vision for the war, and was believed by most of the senior officials in both the RAF and USAAF (read some of what Arthur Harris has said in memos and official directives, it's rather chilling). The USAAF clung to the notion for longer than the RAF that "precision" raids were possible and that it should only be military and industrial sites that are targeted, but that was the result of gross overconfidence in the capability of bombers at that time to accurately hit their target, or even consistently navigate to a target smaller than a city while under fire (and indeed, in some missions the bomber wings would end up dropping ordinance on the wrong city entirely). Beyond that, you can read memo after memo, directive after directive, and even many of the official press releases, and see that destroying civilian morale was at least a secondary objective for most of the campaign in Germany. With the strategic bombing campaign in Japan there wasn't even a question of avoiding civilian casualties, after the initial failings to be able do anything besides indiscriminately firebomb urban areas.

If you're arguing that civilians and civilian structures were targeted exclusively to reduce industrial capacity, that's one interpretation, but we are at least in agreement that they were targeted, right? If a mission targeting the "industrial and military targets" is accomplished by leveling the entire city, does the objective matter? Are the two atomic bombs included in that 'not a single bomb' argument, as though the military significance of the cities was the reason for dropping the bombs?

Also thanks, I was wrong about Nagasaki and Hiroshima not having military importance; I was remembering a list of the largest cities destroyed in Japan, sorted by their target priority. The bombing of Dresden on the other hand, that is the quintessential example of a militarily unimportant target being needlessly annihilated, and rightly so. Leveling a city behind an already collapsed front a month before the war's end served no strategic purpose whatsoever, tactical or otherwise. Whatever minor industrial value the city had, it had no military importance (fortifications, bases, defenses of any kind), and it was only bombed to impress the soviets and improve RAF standing. The Red Army could've walked into the city and taken it weeks later with no significant resistance.

Also, sorry, I know this is a tank thread.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 11:40:15 pm by UrbanGiraffe »
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Morrigi

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #107 on: August 13, 2015, 03:03:40 am »

snip
Yeah, pretty much. All of the evidence points towards terror bombing being entirely real and entirely intentional. I highly question the motives of those who would deny it.
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #108 on: August 13, 2015, 07:05:08 am »




EDIT: Nagasaki was one of Japan's biggest industrial centers, and Hiroshima was a major military base. Both were vital military targets.

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/08/08/kyoto-misconception/

Lots of excellent phrases from the official nuclear weapon targeting centers. Here's my favorite for "The nuclear bombings were a purely military attack they didn't care about psychological effect"
Quote
    From the psychological point of view there is the advantage that Kyoto is an intellectual center for Japan and the people there are more apt to appreciate the significant of such a weapon as the gadget. … Kyoto has the advantage of the people being more highly intelligent and hence better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon.5

Not to mention that the extremely vital and relatively untouched by firebombing Kyoto was refused at the insistence of the chief atomic targeter, war sec. stilson, despite plans being drawn up for annihilating the massive railyards, because

Quote
again gave him my reasons for eliminating one of the proposed targets [Kyoto]. He again reiterated with the utmost emphasis his own concurring belief on that subject, and he was particularly emphatic in agreeing with my suggestion that if elimination was not done, the bitterness which would be caused by such a wanton act might make it impossible during the long post-war period to reconcile the Japanese to us in that area rather than to the Russians. It might thus, I pointed out, be the means of preventing what our policy demanded, namely a sympathetic Japan to the United States in case there should be any aggression by Russia in Manchuria.”

or ie: "If we bomb this city, the psychological effect might be so great that a surrendered Japan would side with the Soviets instead of us".

or that Truman forbade further nuclear bombing after Nagasaki, because "He didn’t like the idea of killing, as he said, ‘all those kids.'”

or that only 140 soldiers died in the direct bomb attack, despite Truman "told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children" (Direct quote from him)


EDIT: OTOH, I think we're straying too far from ze German Wunderwaffen here.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 07:10:24 am by Dorsidwarf »
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #109 on: August 13, 2015, 08:43:19 am »

So back onto German weapons then.

How did the Kar98 compare to the Lee-enfield and Mosin-Negant?
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Sergarr

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #110 on: August 13, 2015, 08:46:46 am »

Probably okay. There's not much you can screw in a bolt-action rifle.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #111 on: August 13, 2015, 09:00:01 am »

Probably okay. There's not much you can screw in a bolt-action rifle.


So back onto German weapons then.

How did the Kar98 compare to the Lee-enfield and Mosin-Negant?
Probably equally useless against German tanks!




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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #112 on: August 13, 2015, 09:00:22 am »

Well let's use what I've seen used to compare these rifles: Accuracy, reliability, and (can't remember exactly what the word was) something along the lines of user friendlyness.

I know the Mosin-Negant is accurate and reliable but not anyone's first pick when it comes to using it because well the gun just wasn't designed with the user in mind. The stock is basicaly a wooden club with a steel plate on the end, it's also (reportedly) pretty short, and since the recoil is pretty bad it hurts like a you know what to fire one of these things. Though they did have it in mind that soilder's would be in winter clothes while using this rifle it's not entirly practical for someone with zero padding between the butt of the rifle and their shoulder.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #113 on: August 13, 2015, 10:59:23 am »

So back onto German weapons then.

How did the Kar98 compare to the Lee-enfield and Mosin-Negant?

The Mauser action was one of the best bolt-action designs ever made, and the Springfield 1903 was a direct copy (to the point where Mauser sued the US government) put into service after TR found the Mausers used by the Spanish troops he faced in Cuba were vastly superior to the rifles the US forces were equipped with. Once he became president, he rammed a new weapon through. Overall, the 98k was slightly worse than the Springfield but better than the other bolt actions of the World Wars. By WWII, the bolt-action was an increasingly anachronistic weapon, so being best wasn't all that useful, particularly since German doctrine was built entirely around the MG38/42, and the small number of riflemen in each platoon were intended only to protect the machine-gunner.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2015, 11:11:55 am »

How's about with the more modern semiautomatic rifles?
I can't remember exactly what the name of the German rifle was but I believe the Russians used the SVT and the Americans had the M1 Garande and (M14?) carbine, I do not recall if/what the British used either
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Strife26

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #115 on: August 13, 2015, 12:34:38 pm »

The garand was head and shoulders superior to the rifles fielded by everyone else in ww2. Semi automatic is superior to bolt action as a general service weapon.
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Kot

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #116 on: August 13, 2015, 12:46:05 pm »

How's about with the more modern semiautomatic rifles?
I can't remember exactly what the name of the German rifle was but I believe the Russians used the SVT and the Americans had the M1 Garande and (M14?) carbine, I do not recall if/what the British used either
G41 (shitty semi-auto) and G43 (good semi-auto, but not really common). British didin't used semi-autos AFAIK, but their Lee Enfields were damn fast for a bolt action rifles.
M14 wasn't used in WW2. Russians had also SKS used in really small numbers, which was basically the best semi-auto during that time.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #117 on: August 13, 2015, 12:52:34 pm »

I though the M-14 carbine was used later in the war? Or am I mixing up rifle names?
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Sheb

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #118 on: August 13, 2015, 12:53:39 pm »

Na, it was the M1.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Defend ze glory of ze German Wunderwaffen!
« Reply #119 on: August 13, 2015, 12:56:20 pm »

Coulda sworn there was a carbine rifle that fired a smaller round used in the pacific theater later during World War Two.
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